Online Poker Forum - Value of Mid Pair, micro stakes

ebola_81 · Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: Value of Mid Pair, micro stakes

Hi All,

Just a random question which I haven't done much research into...... and I am learning and trying to improve my game etc etc

Again not a hand history or anything but how do you play a mid pair (5's though 10's) when a flop comes out with an over card?

This might relate maybe to micro stakes games (1c/2c) games more than others as it seems to be that after the turn people will bet on the cards rather than Cbet. ie most games I have played at this level if you've caught your cards on the flop you bet the pot, occasionally people will Cbet (1/2 to 3/4 pot bet) or you just fold.

I have caught many a mid pair but in micro stakes I am very wary to play this cards as you can't seem to push others out by over-betting, re-raising etc.

Should i just throw these types of hands away and wait for the premium hands to win money on or should i always push these hands.

Example

Dealt pocket 9's

Flop is J 10 4 (not really worried about suits at this point in time)

2 players

Out of Position do I lead strong? (or is this Villain read dependent)

Or if I get a pot sized bet (which is normal for Micro stakes) do I re-raise or just let it go?

At this point I have raised a standard 3 x BB pre-flop etc

I think i have lost some cash by not being aggressive enough with these cards and just waiting for my set to land but am wanting a more experienced answer on it.

Cheers all

nilgiri · Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject:

I would not recommend being aggressive with a mid pair with overcards on the board at the micros, and hardly ever at higher stakes either.

In poker when you bet or raise you should be trying to do one of two things: get value (i.e. you want a call), or make a bluff (i.e. you want a fold). Always think about what you want before you make a bet.

Now consider your scenario:

You are dealt 99 and raise to 3x.
You get one caller.
The board comes JT4 and he bets pot.

Now you are wondering whether to raise. Think about what you will accomplish by raising against the range of hands he might have (1) called preflop with, and then (2) lead out on the flop with.

This is always player dependent, but let's look at a mediocre microstakes player that seems to play decent hands and won't be calling with crap like Q2s and other trashy suited hands or random unconnected stuff. We'll give him a wider range, because it's the micros and people tend to play too many cards, but let's not give him anything crazy.

So his hands are very often going to be hands that beat you that usually won't fold (like JT,JQ/JK/JA,JJ,TT,44, maybe QQ+ sometimes), a few draws (like KQ,Q9,89), sometimes hands that beat you that might fold (like AT/KT/QT) and occasionally complete air or other hands that you beat that won't continue (like A8 or 66). So now that you have assigned him a range, what do you accomplish by raising?

Well, against the first part of his range you are just giving him more money. Against the draws you may get them to call you, but they have a lot of equity against you (i.e. will make a better hand quite often once the turn and river cards come out -- think about how many cards will improve KQ on that board). The hands you beat that won't continue will just fold, but you were beating them anyway and they don't have much equity against you. And there are very few hands that beat you that will fold -- and they may not fold anyway, depending on the player.

So are you raising for value or as a bluff? You aren't getting value from much -- some draws is it. And you aren't bluffing much out -- a few Tx hands is it. Mostly you are actually giving away more of your money to a better hand!

Now, of course, you need to figure out whether to call or fold. Think about his range again and work it out. What hands do you beat that he is betting, how much equity do you have against these hands, and how often is he betting them compared to all the times he bets a hand that beats you?

This is how you want to think about every single poker hand. It won't come naturally at first, but the more you practice it -- both in game and especially out of game going over your hand histories -- the better you will get at it.

DforDissent · Royal Flush Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 669

headsup and you are the preflop raiser, or opponent is a "fit or fold" nit, you have to cont.bet the flop -- maybe 75% of pot if a draw-heavy flop, maybe 60% of pot if a pretty ragged flop (which includes XXYrb, i.e. paired but 3 different suits). If he is the preflop raiser, you might want to float and be the aggressor on the turn, especially if the turn is an overcard and he checks to you.

But once you consider 3-handed flops (which most micro-stakes will be), and when you are not the preflop raiser, it really comes down to table and player style... if you are able to get paid off then 3StreetsOfValuetown>1StreetOfContBet. If this is an aggressive table, maybe check-calling the flop then leading or raising the turn is best. Sometimes if the flop is checked around, a pot-sized bet on ANY turn will take it down >50% of the time. You just gotta watch a few dozen hands before you can confidently make these kind of moves.

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