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big-boy-ramsey · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: Religion and poker?

I really hope this doesnt get locked or deleted.I'm not trying to start a debate or a flame war,but i got a genuine dilema.

As a southern Babtist i'll go straight to hell on a full scholarship if i dont tithe 10% of my income.

Recently i had a discussion with my preacher,who's daughter does my finances by the way,about a $400 tithe to the church.This was from a live poker trny cash.He did'nt think this was right(did'nt give the money back tho!)

The only thing he could come up with against gambling biblicaly was when Jesus cast the money changers out of the temple.

Anyone got any oppinions here?

nilgiri · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject:

Interesting question.

AFAIK, the money changers had nothing to do with gambling. They provided a service much like currency exchangers today -- they took one currency and gave you another. Of course, they charged a fee for it, and the customers were Jews intending to sacrifice shekels (which the church enforced), but who only used Roman currency (which the Roman empire enforced). You should double check that I'm accurate on that, though.

As far as I know, there isn't anything directly mentioned in the Bible about gambling being a sin. I don't know the Bible well enough to say that with authority, though.

I'm Christian as well (Orthodox, though, not Baptist). My situation is a little different, because Orthodoxy isn't big on telling people what they can/should and can't/shouldn't do. On the other hand, I definitely have some ethical sense, whether related to the church or not.

When it comes to gambling, I don't have any ethical issues with it in general. I also think it is similar to other things in our culture/life. The whole point is to get your money in good, where you feel that the odds are you are going to make money later by spending money now. That's like stock market trading, or like any other trading, really. Buying items at garage sales and reselling them on Ebay is the same principle.

On the other hand, there are definitely some things about gambling/poker that could be ethically problematic, generally involving hurting other people. I will never (I hope) knowingly take advantage of someone who can't afford to gamble; and if I ever do so unknowingly, will (again, I hope) attempt to rectify the situation is whatever manner I feel is most appropriate.

telebob · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:

I also would tend to disagree with your preachers interpretation of the money changer incident. I would hope after years of study he could come up with a better argument. On the other hand, your preacher is supposed to be the authority in regards to your churches interpretation of the Bible, and I would guess that if you doubted his judgement or trustworthiness you would find a different church to attend.

I guess it comes down to what you believe in. If you believe that God tells you to accept the leadership of your church and it's preacher, then I think it's best to follow his guidance. But if you believe that it's your job to develop your own understanding of your relationship with God, using the teachings of your church as a background upon which to exercise your own good judgement, you have a much more difficult (and rewarding, imo) decision.

In any case, I'm in complete agreement with nilgiri on this one. The only ethical dilemma I can think of is the risk of harming someone who has an addiction to gambling, and I think there are ways of mitigating that risk.

Oh, and I should mention that I'm not religious at all, and have done relatively little study on the matter, so please take my ideas with a grain of salt.

alex j beeson · Message Board Junkie Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 1256

What some would say about gambling. Your preacher should have been saying something along these lines.....

It�s just a friendly bet between friends. It�s a form of entertainment. I budget my money especially for gambling. The money I spend on the lottery benefits the schools. I never gamble more than I can afford. I love the excitement. If I win money gambling, I can give more money to God.� Well, these are excuses that you have undoubtedly heard before. Perhaps you have used one of them yourself. They are some of the things that I have heard Christians say about gambling, but what does the bible say?

Webster�s dictionary defines gambling as, �To play for money, to risk.� This brochure is defining �gambling� as �Any activity that involves the exchange of assets from the loser to the winner.� Indeed, gambling�s biggest conflict with scripture, is that for someone to win, somebody else has to lose. Fortune can only be gained by someone else�s misfortune. Gambling epitomizes the �self life� that the bible speaks so strongly against.

�Do nothing from selfishness . . .� (Phil. 2: 3).

Gambling, especially in the form of a lottery, exploits the poor. Norman L. Geisler, in his book, Gambling A Bad Bet, says,

Most states have a lottery, but no state dedicates lottery funds to help the poor, even though the poor play more in proportion to their income and therefore pay more of the tax dollar� It�s not hard to understand why the poor play more: They would like to get rich--quick � Even though everyone pays the same for a lottery ticket, the poor are paying proportionally more, since they have less. Lotteries penalize the poor, in effect taxing the most vulnerable members of society� hose who play, pay, sold on the illusion of a quick fix for their financial difficulties, only to find themselves in deeper trouble as a result of their gambling.

The argument that says, �If I win by gambling then I will have more money to give to God� is ludicrous. The gospel of Jesus is to give to the poor as a reflection of our service to God. Gambling does just the opposite, it takes from the poor. The exact opposite of what Jesus has called us to do. Geisler further states,

Money used for betting means less money for gas, groceries, clothes, and other needs. This means the gas stations, grocery stores, and clothing stores will sell less. Gambling produces no new wealth for the economy. It has no product and adds nothing to the economy; it is an economic parasite. As such, it is a leech on the economic resources needed to help the poor.

Indeed, the essence of gambling is loss and exploitation. The only way for someone to win is for someone to lose.

The argument, �Gambling is a form of entertainment,� is not justifiable for the Christian who has thought out this reasoning to its logical end. There are many forms of �entertainment� that are biblically wrong. Drugs, pornography, and drunkenness to name a few. Indeed, there are a multitude of things associated with the �lusts of the eyes,� and the �lusts of the flesh� that bring temporary pleasure and yet God says to abstain from such things.

Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain
from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul. - Peter 2: 11

Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision
or the flesh with regard to its lusts. -Romans 13: 14

Casino gambling is especially contrary to the word of God because of the environment in which the gambling takes place. There are few places in the world that better represent the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life, all wrapped up in one �glittering, neon-lit package,� than the gambling casino.

Romans 14:21 makes an important statement which applies to gambling. It says, �It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.� Here the bible is specifically telling us that we shouldn�t willfully do anything that would cause others to stumble. Dr. James Dobson notes,

Let�s begin by looking at Nevada, which legalized gambling in 1931 and remains the glitziest showplace for the industry� Consider these documented facts: When compared with the other 49 states, Nevada ranks first in the nation in suicide, first in divorce, first in high school dropouts, first in homicide against women, at the top in gambling addictions, third in bankruptcies, third in abortion, fourth in rape, fourth in out-of-wedlock births, fourth in alcohol-related deaths, fifth in crime, and sixth in the number of prisoners locked up. It ranks in the top one-third of the nation in child abuse, and dead-last in voter participation. One-tenth of all southern Nevadans are alcoholics. And as for the moral climate, the Yellow Pages in Las Vegas lists 136 pages of advertisements for prostitution by its various names. No wonder they call it �Sin City.�

Well, the stumbling blocks associated with gambling are numerous and well documented. Indebtedness, addiction, poverty, crime, broken marriages, and greed are just a few of the �stumbling blocks� that have resulted for many. But you might say, �Hey, I don�t have any of those problems. I just gamble for fun. Once in awhile. And I only gamble what I can afford to lose. What�s so bad about that?� Again, the issue of Romans 14:22 is not just whether or not gambling causes you to stumble, but how it effects others.

4 Questions to Ask
Whenever we are dealing with an issue that is not specifically addressed in scripture, there are four questions that can be asked which will help determine the will of God on that particular subject.

These questions are:
1. Does this bring glory to God? 1Cor. 10:31
2. Does this further the kingdom of God? Mat. 6:33
3. Does this express love and care for others? 1Cor. 16:14; Phil. 2:3
4. Does this strengthen our relationship with God? John 17:3

As we can see, gambling does not bring glory to God. In fact, it clearly takes away from His glory. Gambling does not further the kingdom of God. Again, it takes away from it. Does gambling express love and care for others? No, it does just the opposite. It is an activity whose very foundation is based on the misfortune, and exploitation of others. And as we can see by the potential stumbling blocks associated with gambling, it in no way strengthens our relationship with God, but in fact, has much potential to damage it. What does the bible say about gambling?

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject:

You're not alone, big-boy. I also thought about this when I first started playing poker.

I don't think Jesus kicking the money changers out of the temple had anything to do with gambling at all. Money changers converted Greek and Roman money for Tyrian and Jewish money, the only types of money the temple accepted. They did this for a considerable fee. Money changers were only a the temple to extort money from those needing to exchange money. That's why Jesus cast them out, imo.

I think if you play within your budget, and behave yourself accordingly, there's no reason to feel guilty about playing poker. I refuse to believe that simply playing games of skill for money makes someone a sinner.

big-boy-ramsey · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

Let me clarify....the money changers is the CLOSEST thing he could find to gambling......there was nothing he found to say it was wrong or a sin.

big-boy-ramsey · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject:

Dang alex....after reading your reply i started looking for the offering plate to be passed!...well stated....thanks

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject:

alex j beeson · Message Board Junkie Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 1256

nilgiri · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject:

keegs22 · Royal Flush Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 579

Good discussion. While I don't think it's neccesarily ok to gamble, I really don't recall much in the Bible or disccusions giving alot of reason as to why it's wrong. I only skimmed alex's post with some Biblical texts which is partially against gambling, but mainly against lust, selfishness and exploitation. Each of those can be a part of gambling, but it doesn't have to be.

alex j beeson · Message Board Junkie Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 1256

Hey, the churches run bingo games, that is gambling TBH.

The true sinner is Full tilt poker itself, as they make money off of peoples addictions and weakness. We are all a part of it. Cogs in the wheel as it were. And dont think we arent.

But, we have free will. We justify commiting sin everyday. But we have free will to sin or not. It all has a price to pay in the end and we pay it.

OP, if your preacher thought the money was gained from sinful practice he should not have taken it. Thus by him taking it he tolerates sin. And in such makes it easier for us to justify it.

I am not condeming Poker players or anyone, I am part of the same network. I just know that God (if such an entity exists) would not care much for it. Heck, God punished Moses for striking the rock for water when he was supposed to call water forth. Seems minor to you or I but to God it is a different story.

OP, if you want to play Poker then play Poker, if you want to smoke crack then smoke crack. Do whatever you wish just understand there are consequences to everything we do, even though we may not see them.

Walking into a casino, such fun and excitement. But look around, the place is built on losers. It suceeds and flourishes because of losers. People who lose their money, their possesions and their livelihoods due to their own weakness. And that is the bottom line.
the fine print
someone has to lose.

You just hope it isn't you who is gonna be the one losing....

But peace and good fortune to all. Do what you will, Nothing is good or evil, just everything are things we do for what ever reason. Look at it that way if you want.
Peace

alex j beeson · Message Board Junkie Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 1256

igetmoney515 · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject:

I have been a Christian all my life, I have a strong, close relationship with God, and I have been studying the Bible extensively for quite a long time, so I can tell you pretty much anything you need to know about it.

I used to play poker for real money, until I really started to understand what the Bible said about it.
I no longer play for real money anymore. I will play the occasional freerolls. (Hence why I tried a 0-1k challenge not to long ago. And failed completely lol.)

I have a few points I would like to make about this topic.

1. Your preacher was off on his point with the money changers.
Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple for a couple different reasons.
A. The money changers were ripping people off...badly, in the house of God.
B. They were using the temple for something the temple wasn't meant to be used for, and they were using it on a holy day.

Also, another thing to think about, before people out there start thinking that Jesus is a ticking time bomb with a bad temper, like the Pharisees did back then.

Jesus had the right to throw the money changers out of the temple, he was the Son of God, it was HIS temple.

And now on to my arguement against gambling.
The Bible tells us to be good stewards of our belongings. This is because they don't really belong to us, they are God's things. And when we gamble our money and belongings, we are putting them at a good risk of being taken from us. That's not being a good steward.

Thanks for reading, I know that was a bit long, but I'm a Christian, I literally live to talk about stuff like this.

God Bless.

pokeropie · Royal Flush Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 779 Location: Ohio

If you all are such good christians then why are you on here playing?

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