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Hubba_Rocks
Straight
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 101
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 Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: Confidence In Your Reads |
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Pretty soft table overall, pretty much the norm for low level SnG's.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $30/$60
6 players
Stack sizes:
UTG: $2805
UTG+1: $4350
CO: $1775
Button: $425
SB: $1475
Hero: $2670
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 6 Q
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.
Flop: 8 Q Q ($240, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $180, UTG calls, Button calls, SB folds.
Turn: A ($780, 3 players)
Hero bets $600, UTG raises to $1600, Button folds, Hero raises all-in $2430, UTG calls.
River: 5 ($5640, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $5640)
Results:
Final pot: $5640
Hero showed 6h Qh
UTG showed Qc 9c
The little voice in my head was screaming that he had me beat on the kicker. I disregarded it and pushed anyway. Anyone think they could have folded it?
Normally I wouldn't even question the hand, it's just that I went against all my instincts. |
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drcossack
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 1340
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if I could've have folded that one either - so hard to get away from a set. Let me look at the hand in detail though.
The kicker is, of course, a problem, but the only thing to worry about on that flop was the Case Queen with a higher kicker. Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened.
I don't like the all-in on the turn, honestly. Too many hands have a Q6 beat. Honestly, the raise from the UTG player would've had me folding that set. |
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GuitarDean
Full House
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 169
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
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It's definitely a hard fold. However, considering your opponent called your bet on the flop then raised on the turn, I think there's a good chance he slowplayed his trips; and most trips would have your 6 kicker beat; that is if they haven't filled up already, in which case you're probably drawing dead. It's always suspicious when someone calls a bet on a flop with a pair - what could he possibly be calling with? Don't think "there's 1 Q left in the deck, he probably doesn't have it," you must think "what could he have that he would call my flop bet with, other than the case Q?" (Assuming of course that your opponent isn't clueless; it's impossible to put a clueless person on a hand, because the guy himself doesn't understand his own plays!) Yes, the chances of a random hand containing the case Q is tiny; but the chances of the hand that called your flop bet to contain the case Q is quite a bit larger.
And then the raise on the turn said "I slowplayed on the flop, but you bet into me twice so I think you also have trips; I haven't filled up yet but I don't want to risk you outdrawing me, so I'm going to raise now before the river card." Okay maybe not exactly what I said every time, but I think the raise on the turn was typical of someone slowplaying his trips on the flop but doesn't want to keep slowplaying against an aggressor since he hasn't filled up yet.
Last note: this is definitely an all-in or fold situation; no point calling the turn bet - if you call another $1000 you're pot-committed against the aggressor with another card to come. Chances are you'll have to go all-in no matter what the river is. |
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VLAD1001
Pair
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 41
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: |
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This illustartes the problem of getting a 'free' flop from the BB with an otherwise unplayable hand, the problem is not missing the flop, it's hitting it. I've screwed myself this way countless times..
There's a reason not to play a hand like Q6, if the Q hits you have no kicker and can't stand action...with a hand like this you really want the 6 to hit more than the queen...trip sixes would have been more playable probably...and you playing out of position to boot....trips are definitely not the same as a set... aboard that is paired is a very dangerous board indeed |
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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2189
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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i think you were basically screwed from the get go. it's really impossible for the average person to lay that hand down. even the most skilled pros would likely not lay that hand down(six handed). it just goes with the variance of poker, imo. for the most part, i think you played the hand right. there was a flush draw on the board, and you lead out. when the guy raised you on the turn, he could have been trying to represent an A(or even had an A) and might have figured you were betting the flop with an 8, since you did not check it with trip Q's. i've had that situation happen to me and its even worse when you lose with a decent kicker.
i'd say it would have been a great laydown if you could have gotten away from it. like you said you were playing at a soft table and figured that if he did have trips, most likely you would be beat, as he was not in the blinds and entered the hand. if you put him on a queen, you probably had to put him on a 10 or higher (in this case he actually had 9) as why would he limp with a hand like Q-little. had you have folded in that situation you would still nearly have about 1800 in chips with the blinds relatively low. if you felt confident in your ability to build your chips back off, i would have layed it down and picked a better spot. if you don't have the ability to lay down the best hand, you won't be a winning player.... |
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Uncle_Buz
Four of a Kind
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 260
Location: Tampa (formerly Ann Arbor)
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Why would a good, savvy, experienced player in a pretty big money game, call from UTG with a Queen and a 2, 3, 4 or 5? Maybe they call UTG with Q9, T or Jack and Raise with KQ or AQ.
It just seems that 99% of the time, good players do not play a weak Queen under the gun. |
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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2189
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| oops..it was a ring game...my bad. but my initial point about the guy playing q-little from utg still stands. |
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Gonso
Three of a Kind
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Hubba_Rocks wrote: |
Pretty soft table overall, pretty much the norm for low level SnG's.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $30/$60
6 players
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I'm confused by your post - but I assume this is a SNG tourney, not a ring game...
Each has a couple of this I would add to this, but in either case, I think you overlooked an option, just slowing down.
Looking at this hand after the turn raise and re-raise, just before you went all in, here are the hands you're likely to be up against if your opponent has any idea what he's doing:
If you go all in-
1) 88 and Q8 is definately calling, and 88 would fit here.
2) AQ, KQ, JQ (all likely holdings) are almost certain to call, and not far behind are QT, Q9, Q8, Q7 (less likely from UTG). Of course we know that he had limped in with Q9s UTG, but you had mentioned the table was soft.
3) Q6, Q5, Q4, Q3, Q2 will probably call, but this isn't likely to match a flat call UTG, soft table or not. Disregard.
3) A8 - anyone who was dumb enough to stick around until the turn might call you with this, but it's less likely.
4) Any other Ace lower than AQ will probably fold.
5) AA, KK, AK - he could have limped UTG with these hoping for a reraise. I doubt he would call with two Qs showing and an opponent willing to go all in, but a less experienced player might.
6) Flush draws should already be gone - the bets were right and they could be drawing dead already.
So when you add it all up, there's not a lot of hope that he would call your all in with something that you could beat, other than slowplayed aces or kings. That's probably what was making your instincts go nuts after he re-raised you on the turn.
Here's where I think you overlooking an option - slowing down. You sound like you were faced with either pushing or folding, when you could flat call the $500 and check the river.
He may put you all-in after that, of course, and you'll be ready to call when he does. But he is having the same problem as you are. After all, he could be up against AQ or 88 himself... he's forced to call if you go all in, but he might slow down a little. |
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justin farrell
Pair
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: tough one |
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| i woulda called, there were plenty of cards to chop if a paint card comes and the bingo 6 also. |
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xX zorrito Xx
Four of a Kind
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 293
Location: Reraising you from the button...
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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i can't believe he played Q 9 UTG like that... i would've defenitly put him on something like KQ or something like that...
defenitely hard muck but you gotta trust your insticts and pick a better spot... if you're a successful player one pot isn't going to kill you...
do not under any circumstances announce your hand... |
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Hubba_Rocks
Straight
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I didn't think this post would stick around this long.
Alot of good insights, I wish I could say that I analyzed the hand nearly as thoroughly as Gonso did.
However, thing is, I actually got myself to believe that he didn't have a hand at all. I would have no problem betting the way he did on the bluff, and flat-calling the flop/re-raising the turn with a paired board is one of my favorite plays.
I guess I got a little too fancy and a little too excited at flopping a set, and talked myself into calling. |
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