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Cue-Ball 66
High Card
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject: To re-raise or not to re-raise the nut low? |
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Just looking for advice on how I played this hand...
FullTiltPoker Game #191496046: Table Alexander - $5/$10 - Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 0:13:05 ET - 2005/08/21
Seat 1: Cue-Ball 66 ($247)
Seat 2: williemcoy ($75)
Seat 3: bing4161 ($122.50)
Seat 4: sdrzewic ($58.50)
Seat 5: Erik Seidel ($150.50)
Seat 6: lidboyx ($47.50)
Seat 7: HornyBuck ($76.50)
Seat 8: Monkey27 ($87.50)
Seat 9: CzarineC ($199)
HornyBuck posts the small blind of $2.50
Monkey27 posts the big blind of $5
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Cue-Ball 66 [9d 2c Kc As]
CzarineC calls $5
Cue-Ball 66 calls $5
williemcoy folds
bing4161 folds
sdrzewic calls $5
Erik Seidel folds
lidboyx folds
HornyBuck calls $2.50
Monkey27 checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 6h 8s]
HornyBuck checks
Monkey27 checks
CzarineC checks
Cue-Ball 66 bets $5
sdrzewic raises to $10
HornyBuck calls $10
Monkey27 folds
CzarineC calls $10
Cue-Ball 66 calls $5
*** TURN *** [4s 6h 8s] [5d]
HornyBuck checks
CzarineC bets $10
Cue-Ball 66 calls $10
sdrzewic has 15 seconds left to act
sdrzewic folds
HornyBuck calls $10
*** RIVER *** [4s 6h 8s 5d] [Jd]
HornyBuck checks
CzarineC bets $10
Cue-Ball 66 raises to $20
HornyBuck calls $20
CzarineC calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Cue-Ball 66 shows [9d 2c Kc As] (Ace King high)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
(6,5,4,2,A)
HornyBuck shows [9h 4c 3s Ah] (a pair of Fours)
(6,5,4,3,A)
CzarineC shows [Js Qh 3h 2s] (a straight, Six high)
(6,5,4,3,2)
CzarineC wins the high pot ($76) with a straight, Six high
Cue-Ball 66 wins the low pot ($76) with 6,5,4,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $155 | Rake $3
Board: [4s 6h 8s 5d Jd]
Seat 1: Cue-Ball 66 showed [9d 2c Kc As] and won ($76) with HI: Ace King high; LO: 6,5,4,2,A
Seat 2: williemcoy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: bing4161 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: sdrzewic folded on the Turn
Seat 5: Erik Seidel didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: lidboyx (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: HornyBuck (small blind) showed [9h 4c 3s Ah] and lost with HI: a pair of Fours; LO: 6,5,4,3,A
Seat 8: Monkey27 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: CzarineC showed [Js Qh 3h 2s] and won ($76) with HI: a straight, Six high; LO: 6,5,4,3,2
Firstly I'll say I'm not a person who like raising a naked A2 unless it has something else giong for it, and even then I'll usually only do it in late position with lots of limpers...anyway, what I'm wondering about is my flop play? Should I have reraised when it came back to me?
I was thinking at the time if i reraised it may've been capped by sdrzewic, and that may've killed my action. Of course, since it doesn't look like his hand was too powerful after all this was probably wrong.
I think smooth-calling the turn was good, because raising may have forced out the other player with the A3 low, but again, I could be wrong.
Any comments more than welcome...
Cube |
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TBKnbaNYC
High Card
Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 2
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: Easy Answer... You shouldn't have even bet in the first place. |
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One shouldn't really bet the nut low without a chance of winning the hgih... let alone raise. Someone will usually bet their high every round, which is enough to build the pot. Lows are more often split than highs... that's why one doesn't win iin the long run if one bet/raises them. Every time you get quartered, you're losing more in the long run when you bet rather than call.
Also... if you do decide to bet.. you can't re-raise because re-raises induces folds not callers.... you want callers when all you can win is half the pot max. |
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KGBlovesOreos
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 5318
Location: VA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| you gotta re-raise... it gives you a chance to win more money when you have the nuts... plus, if you re-raise and you get somebody to fold, it puts doubt in there head as to whether or not you had it, so you might get more action later on from them when you have it again |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: Re: |
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| KGBlovesOreos wrote: |
| you gotta re-raise... it gives you a chance to win more money when you have the nuts... plus, if you re-raise and you get somebody to fold, it puts doubt in there head as to whether or not you had it, so you might get more action later on from them when you have it again |
This is omaha hi/lo we're talking about, it's very different from hold 'em. I don't like re-raising here, because since you figure to get half the pot, re-raising on the flop here could cause one of your opponents to fold on the turn. You could easily get quartered or counterfeited, and you have virtually no hope of winning the high. Flat call here. |
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goodtime
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2043
Location: Dearborn Hts, MI
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| In my opinion, I like the raise and re raise here on the flop and turn and the just flat call on the river. On the flop and turn you can represent a higher hand and maybe get someone off of a hand like 2 pair which you would split the pot with. The more the pot you get the better. |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| goodtime wrote: |
| On the flop and turn you can represent a higher hand and maybe get someone off of a hand like 2 pair which you would split the pot with. |
We have no high hand at this point, so the most we will win is half the pot. Yes, re-raising on the flop would potentially make one of our opponents go away, but we don't want this. The low half of the pot is probably ours, whether both opponents stay in or not. Therefore, we want them both in the pot until the end, so that we end up making money on the hand. If we drive an opponent out, we will take the low, our opponent will take the high and we will break even. |
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Andy Bloch
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:39 pm Post subject: You always have a high hand |
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| GripHoldOn wrote: |
| We have no high hand at this point, so the most we will win is half the pot.... If we drive an opponent out, we will take the low, our opponent will take the high and we will break even. |
Whether to reraise on the flop is more complicated than you make it seem. In Omaha 8, you ALWAYS have a high hand, it just might be a very weak high hand, and you're almost always drawing live to win the high. I evaluated the hand using the twodimes.net poker evaluator. As it turned out, against the two opponents that made it to the show down, out of 666 turn and river combinations, you'd scoop 35 times and win the high or half of the high 25 more times. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1175458 Your equity is over 44%. Certainly, had you known your opponents' cards, you'd like to get more money in the pot.
If you reraised on the flop and got the [3s 4c Ah 9h] player out, now your pot equity is almost 60%. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1175459 . Would you rather put in money getting 2:1 with 44% equity, or getting even money with 60% equity with larger bets? The answer is, it's pretty close, and depends on how many bets and raises there will be in the future. However, there's already a good amount of money in the pot at this point, 12 bets, and by getting it heads-up you'll win those 12 bets 10% to 16% more often. That's definitely worth a bet or two. Plus, heads up you'll be able to play much more confidently, because you won't have to worry about getting whipsawed if your low gets counterfeited.
Now, this analysis assumes you know your opponents' hands, which of course is not the case. And in this hand there was another player who check-raised the flop who might have timed out on the turn. So just calling is a reasonable option if you think you might be quartered and the raiser has you drawing dead for high. But, like others have suggested, I think this is a situation to mix up your play, against somewhat observant opponents anyway. By sometimes calling here with just the nut low, and sometimes raising, you'll avoid giving away information about whether you are (primarily) going high or low or both. |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: You always have a high hand |
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| Andy Bloch wrote: |
| Now, this analysis assumes you know your opponents' hands, which of course is not the case. |
This seems like a rather rare example. Neither opponent had the high or low nuts, and neither opponent was drawing to the high or low nuts either. Neither opponent had a set or even two pair. It's a little too hopeful in my opinion to expect to win or split the high 1 time in 11, considering we're drawing dead against a straight and drawing to running 3-5 if we're up against a set, and it's likely that neither of those cards can be spades. Based on the action on the flop, assuming that at least one of your opponents has either A2, a straight, or a set here is not too farfetched but it would have been faulty here.
Against these hands, of course, our hand is very strong, and re-raising is at least as good as flat calling. But because we don't actually know what our opponents have, I like keeping the pot three-handed if possible. If we're going to get quartered, it will hurt worse in a heads up pot anyway, and if we're going to take half, we will win much more in a three-handed pot.
Is my analysis faulty here Andy? |
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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: You always have a high hand |
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| GripHoldOn wrote: |
| Andy Bloch wrote: |
| Now, this analysis assumes you know your opponents' hands, which of course is not the case. |
This seems like a rather rare example. Neither opponent had the high or low nuts, and neither opponent was drawing to the high or low nuts either. Neither opponent had a set or even two pair. It's a little too hopeful in my opinion to expect to win or split the high 1 time in 11, considering we're drawing dead against a straight and drawing to running 3-5 if we're up against a set, and it's likely that neither of those cards can be spades. Based on the action on the flop, assuming that at least one of your opponents has either A2, a straight, or a set here is not too farfetched but it would have been faulty here.
Against these hands, of course, our hand is very strong, and re-raising is at least as good as flat calling. But because we don't actually know what our opponents have, I like keeping the pot three-handed if possible. If we're going to get quartered, it will hurt worse in a heads up pot anyway, and if we're going to take half, we will win much more in a three-handed pot.
Is my analysis faulty here Andy? |
I don't like reraising on the flop for a few reasons.
- You don't have any backup for low
- You have no high or even a tenable high DRAW
- You could be getting quartered
Since there are already 4 players, getting quartered is not a huge worry, and reraising, even if you know sdrzewic will cap it, is unlikely to drop anyone on the flop given that they have already cold-called 2 bets.
If you flat call on the raise on the flop, you can then see the turn.
If an A or 2 hits, in which case you check-fold. If no A or 2 hits, you can either bet out or check-raise. The check-raise has the advantage of letting you see how many people call the first bet. If you check, sdrzewic bets, and everyone else folds, then you could flat call and hope you are not being quartered. About the only card you could check-raise heads up with would be a K where you think you may be able to quarter him. But if sdrzewic gets two callers again, you can probably safely check-raise. You might even get some mediocre highs out (since they may think the turn card helped you high, since it didn't change the low situation) and then you increase your chances to scoop.
With only 1 card to come, the chances of being counterfeited go down quite a bit and you also know whether you have 4 players still around to price you in even if you know you are going to get quartered.
But I also agree with Andy, that mixing up your play is also a good thing. Capping on the flop may convince someone with a mediocre low that they are up against nut low and a straight (between the two of you) and you may force out some of the mediocre highs and give yourself a chance to scoop heads up versus an A2 that has an even worse high than you. |
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goodtime
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2043
Location: Dearborn Hts, MI
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Perry, I'm not sure when you posted this but it's 12:58am EST right now and I'm wondering if you would like some action and a low limit Omaha H/L game or a holdem game of your choice. |
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