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AceHigh1980
Straight
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 124
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 Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: Calling raises pre-flop w/ Avg. Hands |
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If someone before you raises 3-4 X the BB is it ok to call with hands such as A, 5 s or K,J. Or should you lay down average hands like this when being raised to.
thanks |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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If someone is raising, they are saying they have a "better than average hand." Why call that raise with an average hand?
If you're going to call a raise with less than a premium hand, I reccomend that it don't be Ax or KJ. Both of those hands are dominated by hands that people do raise with often. With A5 for instance, if you flop an ace, your hand may not be good because people raise with AJ AQ AK. If you catch a 5, your hand may not be good because people raise with 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA. With KJ, if you are up against AJ AK or KQ, you are in big trouble if you pair up, you likely are outkicked. If you are going to call a raise, and I DO NOT RECCOMEND THIS, do it with a hand like 65 suited. At least with a hand like this, you'll know whether your hand is the best or the worst after the flop. |
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AceHigh1980
Straight
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Alrite, Thanks Grip i see what your saying, try to see flops with these types of hands if you can get in for fairly cheap, but fold to a raise |
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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7846
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Howard Lederer also encourages calling raises with suited connectors, but only if you have lots of chips compared to the blinds and antes, because most times you'll be folding after the flop. |
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UrbanMeyer1
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 720
Location: Gainesville, FL (The Swamp)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| BOYNAMEDSUE wrote: |
| Howard Lederer also encourages calling raises with suited connectors, but only if you have lots of chips compared to the blinds and antes, because most times you'll be folding after the flop. |
Yeah, that's what grip is saying....
MTT: You need to have a deep stack, you shouldn't be burning off chips if your only an average or low stack. |
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iuz the old
Three of a Kind
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 85
Location: chicago
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with the suited connector theory and I also recommend calling with any pair to try for a set. I dont call with these if it requires more than 15% of my stack however. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| You should think about the pot odds you're getting before calling blindly and hoping for a set, flush, or straight. If you're not getting 7:1, you shouldn't be calling with baby pairs that need to improve to win. Although, really, that could go down to as low as 4 or 5 to one, since you also have pretty good implied odds there. There are no "always" situations in poker. Suited connectors especially you want to see a CHEAP flop with many players - not a raised pot with one or two opponents. |
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iuz the old
Three of a Kind
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 85
Location: chicago
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:03 am Post subject: |
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I like to limp pairs and get raised not cold call a raise. By limping it encourages other limpers and then if a raise comes in I can try for a set to stack someone. Obviously when the raise is too big I have to muck them and when I miss the flop (which is mostly) I have to do the same.
We all have strategys for making moves - some of us can win without cards some of us have to try for sets - both ways have their expenses. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Oh, I try for sets - I just do it cheaply. I won't usually call a raise with pocket fours, for example - it just costs too much to try for the set. There are of course exceptions to this - this is FAR from a hard and fast rule. But to each his own, I guess. |
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iuz the old
Three of a Kind
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 85
Location: chicago
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| I agree , I dont generally call raises with baby pairs either but I make exceptions when it comes to the a min. raise. I figure anyone who min. raises (and it happens all the time at the $5 and $10 Buy ins) is asking for trouble and I plan to give it to them. |
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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7846
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| UrbanMeyer1 wrote: |
| BOYNAMEDSUE wrote: |
| Howard Lederer also encourages calling raises with suited connectors, but only if you have lots of chips compared to the blinds and antes, because most times you'll be folding after the flop. |
Yeah, that's what grip is saying.... |
I know, that's why I said "Howard also encourages calling raises...." |
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gadzooks64
High Card
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Calling raises pre-flop w/ Avg. Hands |
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| AceHigh1980 wrote: |
If someone before you raises 3-4 X the BB is it ok to call with hands such as A, 5 s or K,J. Or should you lay down average hands like this when being raised to.
thanks |
The rule is that you have to have a better hand to call a raise with than you do to make a raise. The Gap Concept. Lay down an average hand to a raise. Save your small pairs for when you can get in cheap.
Consider stack sizes and position before calling a raise, but mostly consider calling only with very good cards. |
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CoolFin69
Flush
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Jaconda78 wrote: |
| You should think about the pot odds you're getting before calling blindly and hoping for a set, flush, or straight. If you're not getting 7:1, you shouldn't be calling with baby pairs that need to improve to win. Although, really, that could go down to as low as 4 or 5 to one, since you also have pretty good implied odds there. There are no "always" situations in poker. Suited connectors especially you want to see a CHEAP flop with many players - not a raised pot with one or two opponents. |
unfortunately, I can't really say I disagree with you, because I recently found out that Doyle wrote this stuff down a couple years before I was born. Good to know...
But even before reading that this month, I've always felt like you can do pretty well in the cheap flop with many players, but that is dangerous because you'll now still have to fold to any other caller/limper who makes a big bet when all you have is the sucker straight. Ya know what I mean?
Calling a raised pot after you've already tried to limp is pretty much what you (or I - I guess) are looking for in early to mid position for a few reasons:
#1) Good amount of money in the pot that the few people in the hand will all be trying to get it after the flop if they're any good... so there is ACTION and GOOD MONEY to be had....
#2) Less callers means you might be isolated with the raiser and/or less callers... especially with only one player, you should be able to put them on any big cards and you'd PREFER them to have As or Ks because it will be VERY HARD for them to get away from that hand and all that money no matter what flops.
You break them easily because you're first to act and you can bet into them with either a made hand, or a little something with the best draw and you'll still get AT LEAST called, but probably re-raised by the big overpair. If he hasn't done it, you can now push all-in and you're either drawing to break him or locked it down already.
Now, all that Doyle says and I'm sure other pros do too... but I like to take it even further. What is inevitable here? The guy is going to curse you out for cracking his aces with your measly little 35s or 57s, even if you did flop the best draw, possibly even both ways (straight AND flush)... He is now on tilt and reaching back in his pocket for another max buy-in... if you don't get that money again real soon, someone else certainly will... AND you've developed a table image as being a crazy loose player who will give action and "likes to gamble" when in reality you were making a very calculated play and would've easily folded if you missed completely.
Yes? No? ...lol, disagreeing with me is disagreeing with Doyle so you can't do it... lol -- that'd be blasphemy!
btw, in regards to stack sizes, he says he doesn't want to do this with more than 15% of his stack, and only 20% (preflop) if he is on a roll... this is mostly because you're going to miss more times than not and might have to try this 5-6x before you can hit it. The misses are paid for by the big win and your other agressive steals. |
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CoolFin69
Flush
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Calling raises pre-flop w/ Avg. Hands |
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| AceHigh1980 wrote: |
If someone before you raises 3-4 X the BB is it ok to call with hands such as A, 5 s or K,J. Or should you lay down average hands like this when being raised to.
thanks |
we got a little sidetracked (as we tend to do here) and started focusing on BETTER hands like pairs and suited connectors...
your original question though on Ace baby and KuJo, suited or not, is more of a feel thing than anything else... some will say you should almost always fold it, and I'd tend to agree with them depending on the game... I guess I wouldn't mind limping in with these hands if you have position and can make a move later... but these are what are called Amateur hands
Feel free to gamble with them, after all you ARE in a Casino and gambling is legal there -- lol
but just realize your EV is REALLY weak and you pretty much have to expect to either lose a little (if you miss) or a lot (if you hit small)... you pretty much have to be creative to win with these hands is what it comes down to and I'm rarely ever that creative  ...I get enough action on my suited connectors, I don't need people thinking I'll play ANY hand when I have to showdown the ace baby, KuJo, etc. etc. when the board turned pretty raggedy for me. |
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CoolFin69
Flush
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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btw, I assumed (as I usually do) that we were talking about a full table...
short-handed and especially head's up you've got to love any ace and any 2 painted cards at first and can call... you'll then have to figure it out from there as you can STILL be in a bad spot even with less players at your table |
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