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pokerpace · Guest

I was playing in a live tourney. There were 7 players at our table. Blinds were at 100/200. The player to my was short stacked with about 1000 in chips. He is first to act and goes all in. I look down to find KK. I move all in for 4000 hoping to keep it heads up. The button, who has about 6000 in chips, calls both of us with AQ suited. At first I thought he was incorrect to call, as he would have been crippled had he lost. But then I thought maybe he did the right thing because he could eliminate both of us if he hit his hand. Of course an ace came on the flop knocking me out of the tourney. Any thoughts??

lentes130 · Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject:

I would say he made a bad call for over half his stack. He had 6000 in chips and the blinds were relatively low compared to his stack. He didn't not need to take that chance.

aztecgator · Two Pair Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 70

I agree with lentes 130, it was a bad call. I just don't see how he could have thought he was ahead. I think its an easy call if he was just HU against the short stack, but after you moved all in, there is no conceivable hand you could have that would not be a favorite over AQ.

Guest · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:04 am Post subject:

Solution: play higher stakes. That's an amateur call.

jorelskid · High Card Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 8

Does your all in protect your hand any more than a the 1000 chip raise(5x the blind), If you feel you need a raise why not a another 1,000 or 1500 chip raise to shows strength but its not all your chips(Now its 10xor 12x the BB). You have to think what hand are going to call behind you? AK,Aq,Aj, 10-10 or AA may lower pairs to. Bet after the flop, you can bet out with no ace or no good draw on the board. If a ace hit well you have to make a tough callor laydown to make but you still have chip and are alive, if you decide to let it go.

If you are a better player than you only want coin filps vs players better than you. You don't want to give tham a chance to out play you.

But if you feel you are the better player than you want to increase the number of decisions you make.

Controling losing chip is almost important as winning them. You can fold AA or KK after the flop its ok. you will get them again if you still have chips-may take a while.

I do like you move in a cash game, but in not tourny play unless you can buy back in.

-Stay alive!!!!!!

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: ...

get all your money in with KK in that situation every time and hope that AQs calls you like that. AQs is a little better than 3 to 1 dog, meaning you are the favorite for most of that pot. Yeah it sucks that you got sucked out on, but you made the correct decision. The power with AQ comes from raising because of fold equity, not from calling.

jorelskid · High Card Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 8

Cash I agree perfect play, Tourney I don't think so. If that AQs was AA and called from behind would it still it a be a great play. Nope, but a smooth call or double raise would be. All in preflop in tourney, Takes skill out of the game if you want to play this way they make slot poker. KK to AQs is 68 to 32. Not 3 to 1. His play loses one 1/3 of the time. All his chips that lose one 1/3 of the time when you are lose to the money.

Sometime you are ahead but need to ask how far ahead. On the bubble or near it I neeed to be away up there

dmoore1998 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject:

Yes even if that AQ was really an AA it's still the right play. You absolutely don't want to smooth-call or double the raise here, you want to try your best to isolate one player with your large PP. Doubling the bet puts in 2,000 of your 4,000 chips essentially committing you to the pot but allowing others to try to bust you or only 2,000 instead of 4,000. You can't smooth call either because you are risking 1/4 of your chips and inviting even more people into the pot. The only real move here is all-in. That's the smart play. If you can get yourself into positions where you are a 68/32 favorite going into the hand, with all your chips in pre-flop you should be taking those almost every time, especially at the end of tournaments. You're not going to find many situations better than that with the exception of pair over pair. That's a great place to get your money in.

mathman1115 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject:

Yah, i would say that is a bad call with AQs there. If he had a hand like J/10s that could suggest a call because he would likely have live cards there, and thats the type of hand that has the best chance against a high PP (or like 8/9s or 9/10s).
But given that situation, even though he had chips to play with, there is no reason to call there, he needed to wait for a better opportunity against 2 opponents

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: Re:

The_Dfg · Guest

I am writing this in reply to all whom this concerns, which happens to be most of you. If all of you have this great knowledge that you claim to have. wouldn't you be in a live game or something of that nature, with all this knowledge you have of bad calls or good calls blah blah blah. you cant say it is right or wrong unless you are in the action cause you have no idea what lead upto those calls or no calls. Or what my happen prior , or the playing styles of the people in the hand. And remember a win is a win no matter how you cut it. Seriously 7 2 off suit can beat any pocket pair any day it just depends on the situation at hand. And I know i will get hateful replies that is fine. Just remember why your posting hateful and illogical replies that may not apply to the persons hand he/she is talking about. I'am out having a life. Remember not calling a big raise is only a small mistake. Peace & hair grease

jorelskid · High Card Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 8

Whatever I was giving my idea on the play. The numbers are percents where AQs does not share the suit with the KK. Plus, times when someone have one over card to a pair they are at least 25% to win thus with the flush option they are better the 3 to one. so 68% to to 32% is the preflop percent to win. which is 2 to one.

This is my take on the near the money.

Being scared of AA no!, but scared because all in with poeple with chip to gamble behind me, Yes! To gain 1000 chips is not worth risking my stack.

Once you bet them they are not your they are the pots.

The I would bet triple the 100 but his chip stack would be crippled so a double would have to do. But whatever!! I think you are trying to win a battle I am trying to win the war.

AA vs KK wins 84%, AA vs KK stand up only about 54% if you have to win the match up twice.

Write what you want I just try to explain my view of it. I not saying this is the perfect play but is what I would do. And my be another way to think about it.

WHen you gamble with all your chip its 50/50. Out or your not. Gamble in the money. Tight is right close to the bubbe

dmoore1998 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject:

When you gamble with all your chips it's not 50/50 though, just because there are 2 outcomes doesn't make it 50/50, it's 68/32 still. I don't think you can just double the raise here, if you do that you leave yourself with 2000 in chips (only 10x the big blind, thus shortstacked). When you stick half your chips into the pot pre-flop you are essentially committing yourself to that pot. Not bad if you are planning a stop-and-go move but what do you do on the flop if you have KK and 3 undercards come? That's the problem, if someone goes all-in are you going to fold now?

Even according to your "tight is right" around the bubble, playing KK all-in in that situation is still tight, it's not "passive is right", tight...tight means good starting hands, tight has nothing to do with whether you are playing passively or aggressively. It's easy to say now that "oh you should have limped" because the AQ called and won. Look at the flipside, if you just call or min-raise you are inviting all kinds of other hands to come into the pot cheaper, suited connectors, weak aces, how dumb do you look if you limp in then get busted when the flop comes 10-6-5 and you get busted by a guy holding 5-6s because he wanted to take a shot.

If you're not willing to go all-in with KK in that situation then what are you ever willing to go all-in with on the bubble? If someone puts you all-in do you always fold until you are blinded off? It's not as if you are calling 3 all-ins ahead of you with KK. A short-stack has just pushed (for an amount that adds 25% to your chipstack, so not an inconsequential amount), you have an absolute monster hand, you don't want everyone else in there drawing against your made hand (since on the bubble many people will call with drawing hands to try to make sure someone knocks the all-in out). I think your options are either smooth-call, make sure no ace flops, then push on the flop, or just push right away and try to shut everyone out. Being that calling costs you 1/4 of your chipstack I think pushing here to isolate is by far the best play.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Re:

Sorry to flame so quickly with the other post. In any case, any line of reasoning in poker that begins with, "someone yet to act -could- have AA" is inherently flawed and will lose you money in the long run if you are interested in winning the war. You can't play scared in NL holdem, cash or tourney.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: ...

good points dmoore, I'd like to add that if your intent is to get away from the pot if it is re-raised or bet on the flop (when you hold KK in a situation like this) then I would beseech you to show me a personal hand history where you were able to successfully avoid AA. The truth is, if someone behind you has AA, they will get your chips every except for the cases where you suck out-->the chips will all go in the pot. This is fine, because of all the hands that will call you in this situation, only one is AA. This wins the war.

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