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iainlap · Two Pair Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 51 Location: Worcester

Hi guys

Just a problem that I seem to be encountering whilst playing and thats when I should value bet on the river when I have a good, but not great hand thats probably ahead.
Say I have raised preflop, and then caught top pair with topkicker, and have bet 3/4 of the pot after the flop, and on the turn, and no straights or flushes draws have been in play. This is where I worry that the player that has called me all the way has checked on the river ready to reraise my bet, and often I will check too, and will possibly miss a bet that I could have got on the River. Just wondering how other people play those kind of situations - its easier when a feasible drawing hand makes it, but its those situations when it doesnt!!

Thanks

comin4you · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject:

If I've taken the lead the whole way and nothing scary has come on the river, I'll make another value bet. If you do get raised, it's a judgement call.

MikeyPipes86 · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject:

Its a tough problem...I actually posted a similar question a while back about continuing to fire at the pot on the turn/river when you keep getting called. You don't want to give your opponent a free card to hit a draw, yet you dont want to keep sweetening the pot for him if he is slowplaying trips, two pair, etc.

On the river, which you specifically mentioned, it is sometimes better to check it down if you are uncertain you have the best holding. Its better to win a moderate pot than lose a monster.

I think what you have to do is concentrate on analyzing the board first then go back and think about what happened pre-flop. Did he raise, did he call a big raise, did he limp in, etc. That will at least narrow down possible holdings.

Also think about what type of player he is. Is he a good, solid player than can execute a slowplay with a monster? Is he a donkey that chases cards? Is he a calling station?

It is alot to handle, but going through all that stuff helps you determine your play. Also, one thing that I have tried to make an effort in doing is playing in position as much as possible. That way you arent acting first much of the time and faced with these tough decisions on whether to bet out or not. Of course that cant always happen.

Just my two cents, Im sure some of the gurus will have better advice.

Wusthof · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Re:

AllInDrawinDead · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject:

If you believe that your hand is the best hand you should bet it for whatever it is worth. If you believe that you have the best hand and that your opponent is holding something weaker such as middle pair or top pair with a weak kicker you should make a reasonable bet that he can call, but small enough so that you do not commit yourself to the pot if he comes over the top. Choosing to check/raise the river can be diastrous because it assumes that your opponent will bet again and you will often lose bets by trying this. A lot of players realize this and will go for their check/raise on the flop or turn. You can't live your life in constant fear of being check/raised.

GripHoldOn · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:16 pm Post subject:

I think more money is won and lost on the river than people know.

Playing well on the river is imperative to being a winning player. In a nutshell, you want to make your opponent make mistakes. You want him to call with the worst hand, or to fold the best hand.

As a general rule, you shouldn't bet medium strength hands on the river because the chances of your opponent's folding the best hand and the chances of his calling with the worst hand are both slim.

Here's a situation that to me, illustrates quite well some of the intricacies of betting or not betting on the river. I have A7 and just call from the SB. The BB checks. I and he are the only two players in the hand. Blinds are low relative to the chip stacks. It doesn't matter how many players are in the game. The flop is K T 2. I check and so does my opponent. The turn is a 7. I check and so does my opponent (I know that an argument can be made to bet here, but this isnt what we're here to talk about). The river is a 4 with no possible flushes.

Here, I would make a bet. It is likely however that he has a four in his hand and will call.

Let's say now that the situation is the same, but this time I hold A5. The flop is the same as is the action. The turn is a 5. The action is the same. The river this time is an 8. Now, I would not bet my hand. My opponent will probably call me if he hit an eight.

In both situations, it is fair to say that I probably had the best hand, and yet, I only bet in one of the two situations!

mathman1115 · Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:01 am Post subject:

You have to consider what types of hands your opponent has that he will call you with on the river that you can beat. If you want to make a value bet on the river with TPTK you have to put your opponent on the same hand with a weaker kicker. You are not likely to get paid off too much by mid or lower pair, especially if the board is scary.
Also, if the board contains 3 or more suited or connected cards, you have to know that a hand like 2 pair, trips, sets, or low flushes (a low flush card in your hand) or dummy end str8s (low end of str8s) will not get called unless you are beat.
If you are in position, betting the river with a mediocre holding could allow yourself to get bluffed out of the pot. Howard Lederer did a take on this on the learn from the pros show, where a player bet out on the river after a check and then his opponent check raised all in on a busted flush. If your oppoenent does that and you only have top pair, you have to fold here.
I do agree with Grip though, making and saving bets (in limit or NL) can be the difference between winning and losing at holdem. This is why it is important to remember what happened throughout the whole hand so that you can narrow your opponents holdings down and make a mathematically correct decision.

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