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Coward Folderer · Guest

I play a very Tight Aggressive game at loose, low limit tables (1/2, 2/4). I've been keeping stats the past couple weeks as I continue to waste my money, and I'm consistantly losing to 20-30% draws approximately 58% of the time. I flopped a set of Aces and lost to a guy calling with nothing but a gutshot. I had QQ and flopped 3 low cards and lost to a guy calling with low pair and a gutshot. Both hands I played against were 78 (first one suited, second one offsuit) and I always raise my premium hands. In fact, both these hands were capped on the flop. This hand here is definitely not the worst loss I've taken recently, but seeing as it's the last of my money, I thought I'd share it with you guys so you can perhaps share with me some insight.

Full Tilt Poker Game #562289132: Table Lakeridge (speed) - $1/$2 - Limit Hold'em - 10:33:17 ET - 2006/04/12
Seat 1: Flying Z ($50.50)
Seat 2: Duemanfu ($6)
Seat 3: Oxford Arms ($13.50)
Seat 4: mal350ci ($0), is sitting out
Seat 5: tacchia ($18.50)
Seat 6: PalmdalePete ($67.50), is sitting out
Seat 7: Coward Folderer ($18)
Seat 8: FADE to ORANGE ($32.75)
Seat 9: YosemitySam ($19)
Coward Folderer posts the small blind of $0.50
FADE to ORANGE posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Coward Folderer [Jd Qd]
YosemitySam folds
Flying Z folds
Duemanfu calls $1
Oxford Arms folds
tacchia raises to $2
mal350ci stands up
Coward Folderer calls $1.50
FADE to ORANGE calls $1
Duemanfu calls $1
*** FLOP *** [3d 7h Qc]
bartman35 adds $20
Coward Folderer checks
FADE to ORANGE checks
Duemanfu bets $1
tacchia calls $1
Coward Folderer raises to $2
FADE to ORANGE calls $2
Duemanfu raises to $3
tacchia calls $2
Coward Folderer raises to $4
FADE to ORANGE calls $2
Duemanfu calls $1, and is all in
tacchia calls $1
*** TURN *** [3d 7h Qc] [5d]
Coward Folderer bets $2
FADE to ORANGE calls $2
tacchia calls $2
*** RIVER *** [3d 7h Qc 5d] [2d]
Coward Folderer bets $2
FADE to ORANGE has 7 seconds left to act
FADE to ORANGE folds
tacchia raises to $4
Coward Folderer raises to $6
tacchia raises to $8
Coward Folderer calls $2
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tacchia shows [8d Ad] (a flush, Ace high)
Coward Folderer shows [Jd Qd] (a flush, Queen high)
tacchia wins the side pot ($22) with a flush, Ace high
Duemanfu mucks
tacchia wins the main pot ($23) with a flush, Ace high
Duemanfu is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $46 Main pot $24. Side pot $22. | Rake $1
Board: [3d 7h Qc 5d 2d]
Seat 1: Flying Z didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Duemanfu mucked [7c Td] - a pair of Sevens
Seat 3: Oxford Arms didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: mal350ci is sitting out
Seat 5: tacchia (button) showed [8d Ad] and won ($45) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: PalmdalePete is sitting out
Seat 7: Coward Folderer (small blind) showed [Jd Qd] and lost with a flush, Queen high
Seat 8: FADE to ORANGE (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 9: YosemitySam didn't bet (folded)

junkbutton · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:01 am Post subject:

I would suggest playing NL... So you can price these people out of the pot. Other than that, can't really help with limit....

Zophar · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:15 am Post subject:

I have no idea what tacchia was doing in that hand after the flop, just awful. You played it well.

griffinlord · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:35 am Post subject:

If you are playing against loose players you can win, but the first thing you must do is play within your bankroll. You don't tell us what that is, but since the posted hand represents the last of your money I suspect you are playing over your bankroll.

The second piece of advice is to move down limits until you can beat the game. On FT that means playing .25/.50 limit.

Junk correctly points out that you cannot price people out of pots in limit, so you have to learn how to win when people play crap preflop and hit their miracle draws. The key to winning is play good hands, play them well, and be prepared to lose a lot of pots.

Yes, you read that right, be prepared to lose a lot of pots.

The pocket aces that are an 80% preflop favorite against a single opponent are only about 50% to win with 3 opponents. Less against 5 opponents. But with three opponents winning 50% of the pots is long-term profitable. Against 5 opponents you only need to win 1 pot in 3 to be long-term profitable.

If you could replay the hand you showed us from the turn 20 times you'd win on the river ~15 times. But, you absolutely need the bankroll to survive the 5 times you get drawn out--which always seem to come in clumps of 2-4 at a time.

The only problem I see with the hand you posted is the reraise on the river. Loose low limit players will play any suited ace to the river if there is any chance of catching the flush. There are a large fraction that will also play any suited K. His calling the flop and turn and raising on the river positively screams "flush draw that hit." With a Q high flush you have a good enough hand to bet/call or check/call the river, but not enough to reraise.

NobAzn · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:06 am Post subject:

I like you're style, eventully donkeys will call off their stack on longshot draws and you will even out. It is hard to bluff in limit, if you have the nuts and several callers then your chips will flourish, and eventually they will respect your bets/raises and stop chasing.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

While you did not play it horribly, that is not a very tight aggressive game - it's certainly aggressive, but calling preflop raises from the small blind with JQs just isn't a great idea. Also, you 4 bet it with nothing but top pair, weak kicker on the flop - do you really think you'll be ahead most of the time in that situation? You were lucky that you were ahead at that point - you usually won't be when people are 4-betting it. Of course Tacchia played it horribly, but that happens. Quit playing crappy hands from bad position. You should have folded that preflop, and not put in the fourth bet on the flop.

Coward Folderer · Guest

While it's impossible for you to have known this from the information given, tacchia had raised the past 11 or 12 hands in a row without exception. Duemanfu was quite obviously planning on throwing all his chips on the table in this hand regardless of his cards or what was on the board. I knew I was dominating the hand after the flop, hence the raises.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

In that case, your postflop play is fine. However, even under those circumstances, I wouldn't play QJs from the small blind. In late position, maybe, but not from first. And I am far from a tight player.

Pokit2s · Message Board Junkie Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 1261

Well, its kind of hard to know that you are losing to those type of draws 58% of the time. The problem with that stat is, if your opponent doesnt hit their draw, they will usually fold. Therefore there is no way of really knowing how often your opponents draws hit. I'm sure the actual percentage is much lower, but there is just know way for you to know exactly what it is.

Pil Sung · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Please teach me

Otto410 · Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject:

This is slightly off topic but, here are thought processes to avoid with blind play:

"The player raised in late position. He's trying to steal my blind! I'll defend with anything."

"Well, I was in the Big Blind, so I decided to call the raise. I already had some chips invested."

Blind play is my nemesis. You don't want to look weak by consistantly folding your blind. But you don't want to be defending with crap either. I've lost more "big hands" when I catch something defending my blind only to find out I was toast from the flop on. For every full house your BB flops (for the wonderful big blind special), you will lose you blind plus the additional bets because you shouldn't have been in the pot to begin with.

We all get that sick feeling when we fold crap that would have hit trips or better. But just think --- just because you would have hit trips doesn't mean the other player wouldn't have either.

For example: I played last night and folded Q8 in the small blind to a raise. Flop came QQ4 with only the cut off and the BB playing. They end up getting it all in. Cut off showed KQ. BB showed 1010. I would have been toast had I decided to "defend."

You may think you're opponent is stealing. You may be right. But you still need something to defend with. Just because you recognoze the steal, doesn't mean you should play "table cop." Harrington's books talk about reraising the chip thief, but to do so with cards that are still playable in the event the thief calls your blind position re-raise.

Robo08 · High Card Joined: 16 May 2006 Posts: 1

Well, I disagree with those suggesting a fold of QJs. In fixed limit it's a pretty good hand. Going up against a late raise I'd surely re-raise the average Joe (even with the caller from middle position). There are a couple of reasons for that...

First, as some talked about, it's taking a stand in your blinds. Maybe it's not as important psychologically here as in No Limit, but you get pretty good odds on your hand. There's already $4.50 in the pot so you're getting 1 to 3 in this specific case.

Second, you can hit a lot of hands with QJs. Top pairs and flushes/flush draws can be argued against since you might be up against A5s in the same suit or KJ or even AQ. But a late raise doesn't intimidate that much.

Third, raising gets a little more money in the pot which will give you better pot/effective odds down the road, should you hit a draw.

Now, had the raise been from early position and no re-raise, I would just have called - here you can expect hands like AQ, AKs, AA and such that would have you in really bad shape. I would call and see if I hit the flop - if I hit it (say a good Q) I'll probably have to stick with it. I could lose to AQ but I could win against an AK. If I hit a draw the odds will dictate. If I don't hit anything - the pot is his (or hers).

So to sum it up; I think QJs is a good hand in fixed cause you can hit a lot of hands. I'd usually call against early or middle position raises, re-raise late raises and fold if it's re-raised before me.

Lastly I must agree with GriffinLord who put it really really well - you must be prepared to loose a lot of pots - if you play well the "few" ones you win will be greater then the sum of those you loose, over the long run.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: ...

A few things I thought should be mentioned. If you suspect larceny from the late position raise (blind steal), and you have a playable hand, then re-raise, don't just call.
As for QJ, I don't like it that much full ring, but 6 handed it works. If you have PT stats you can actually see how you are doing with it. In addition, in a full ring, re-raising with this hand is an expensive habit imho, if you are going to play it in a raised pot I'd recommend being in late position and simply cold calling the raise unless you are attempting to isolate a maniac and have a good table image. Just some thoughts...

flipflop1970 · Pair Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 22

his call from the sb is marginal...

I think the mistake that was made was check raising on the flop...

at this point there are are already 10 small bets in the pot...when he raises he is not making odds for players that will call this bet a big enough mistake. after he raises it is not 12 small bets in the pot.. when the next person reraises there are now 13 bets. tacchia cals and is getting 4-1 on the pot, but figures everyone else in the pot will call so when it get back to Coward and he caps it there is now 10 big bets in the pot. now granted the mistakes were plentyful by tacchia but that is what you want to happen... The only thing is now any type of hand is getting the right odds to call the turn bet.. since chances are no one will reraise you since Duemanfu is all in.

If on the flop you just call you make it only 6 big bets on the turn... Duemanfu will still have enough to bet making it 7 big bets on the turn to you you then can raise to cut the odds in half there will be 10 big bets in and it will be 5.-1 to to remnaing players... you have now contolled the odds and made a better chance for someone to make a mistake. Unfortunately Tacchia would have the nut flush draw for the river card and is getting the right odds to call anyways. since they only need 4-1 for the turn card to break even..

when you have a big pot on the flop (6-8 limpers) or (4-6 caller of a raise) the way to protect your hand is usually bet or call a single bet and wait for the turn to check raise.

you can controll odds better that way...

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

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