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MikeyPipes86 · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: Keep firing at the pot?

Here's a question that I think many can relate to.

Take a 1-2NL with 9 players.

Say you are in late position with a hand like AQd and raise 3-4xbb. Two early limpers call your raise. Pot is now something like 25 dollars.

Flop comes, for example, 9s 8s 3h.

The early limpers check to you. You fire out a continuation bet of 10 dollars. One guy folds, the other calls.

Turn is the 4c, not likely to be of any help to him.

He checks.

DO YOU BET OUT AGAIN?

I have had this dilemma several times. Of course, the first thing that goes through my mind is that one of the guys is playing a low PP and hit his set; 33 for example. He is now letting you keep betting into him knowing you likely have two face cards.

Still this isn't very probable. The guy could also have two face cards, but if so, why didnt he raise preflop? Or, maybe he called your big reraise with A-9 or A-8....

Most likely, and from what I've seen, guys like this are on flush/straight draws. Online, you see people play anything suited or connected hoping to catch that monster and win a huge pot.

So, back to the question, would you continue to fire out at the pot? For me, I really haven't found the answer as I have done both and have gotten burned plenty of times either way. When I do bet out on the turn, it seems as I'll get reraised with a guy with trips, when I don't the guy catches his flush/straight on the river.

I'm interested to hear how people handle this situation.

dmoore1998 · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

At this point I generally do not bet again, you're last to act so you checking doesn't give him a free chance to steal the pot here with a bet. If he is on a draw only a very large bet is going to scare him off of it, if he has a real hand like 2 pair or a set you're just going to get called or raised. The turn isn't a scare card if he's only got one pair, I think you check here and see the river, unless you just put him on 2 big cards that he's unwilling to fold you have to risk a lot of chips to bluff him off his draw which most players will not fold anyways, and you could be betting into a big hand.

GxHxOxSxT · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject:

First, you may want to consider how you "look" to the other players at the table. If you are seen as super tight, they may know that the flopped missed your hand, so they want to stick around even if they have only a small part of it. If you are percieved as loose or you have been caught bluffing lately, they may want to call you down just to play sherriff. On top of that, your betting or your delay/quickness betting or just for no reason at all your play that hand may make them think that you are bluffing or weak and they dont want to just give you the pot.

Then you take a look at the other player. What has he been playing lately? What do your notes say about him? Would he call a big bet with A9 suited? How about Suited connectors like J9 or 89?

If you ask yourself all the above questions and if in less than 30 seconds you determine not too confident in his cards or that he's bluffing (or that there is a really good chance that he is), then throw out another bet. It has to be one that looks like you really do have a hand, but you can afford to lose. You would be surprised at how many pots you can take down if you have the courage to continue firing away at the pot. Being the pre-flop raiser does give you soome credibility which might even get them to lay down a pair of 9's.

More often than not, I am checking and letting the hand go here, but there are times when I sense weakness or when I sense that they think that I'm stronger than I really am that I am willing to fire away one more time. Trust me, though, it doesn't always work.

Ghost

Mattastic · High Card Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5 Location: UK

You need a read in this situation, as villain may ahave 2 high cards like yourself or be drawing to a flush but he beats you if he holds a 9,8,4, or 3. Unless I'd seen him call a continuation bet then fold to a turn bet I'd be done with the hand on the turn.

Gypsydc · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject:

I've both checked and bet out in similar situations. It's a tough decision, and knowing how your opponent has played and how you have played help to make that decision. You could be betting into a made hand or you could be charging him for his draw, it's a tough call to make.

The thing is, if you're playing a cash game, you can just play and play and play, and wait for better opportunities. I'm not saying to play scared by any means, but if you're finding yourself involved in a pot where there is this huge unknown and your stack is at risk, you need to minimize that risk which may mean laying the hand down...I mean, you are nowhere near that flop anyways, so it shouldn't be that tough to let go.

As long as you have the patience, you can find a better spot to make your move. I like Danneman's (I think it was him) quote here, "Folding is only a small mistake." So for the most part, I'd check too, if he sees it as weakness and bets out on the river, let him have it. Don't get caught up in the mentality that you have to win every hand you get involved in. If you remember that it will help your game and your ego greatly.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

I think you HAVE to bet here every now and then if you make continuation bets relatively often. If you check the turn every time you've made a continuation bet and gotten called, even the most feeble-minded opponent is going to see a pattern. There are two pretty obvious downsides to this, one is that your continuation bets will become less and less +EV until they reach the point where they're -EV. The other is that people will stop paying you off on later streets when you actually have a hand.
Two effective ways to counter this is to start firing second bullets on the turn when you've missed and delaying your slow-plays when you flop a monster. Let's say you hold pocket nines and the flop comes 9-4-4, normally a lot of people would want to check this flop and let their opponents catch up. Even if you are one of them you shouldn't do that if people have started to routinely call your continuation bets. Bet out as you would do if you had missed, then check the turn if you get called. This play has several advantages compared to either checking the flop and betting the turn, or checking both the flop and the turn. It actually combines the best features of those two lines, and softens the downsides to them.

If you check both the flop and the turn your opponent will have two opportunities to improve his hand to one that will pay you off, but you will end up with a small pot on the river. Checking the flop and betting the turn will help build a pot, but it will look very suspicious if you're out of position. There's a good chance your opponent will fold right then and there, or fold to a bet on the river, even if his hand improves slightly on the turn.
If you bet the flop your opponent is pretty likely to call you with extremely weak hands, suspecting that you're bluffing as usual. Then when you check the turn, you're basically telling your opponent that he was right, and he'll be much more comfortable calling a big bet on the river if he improves his hand. He might even try the bluff-min-raise that a lot of weak players seem to like. Since this post has gone a bit off-topic, I should probably move on to betting the turn.

Firing a second bullet on the turn is something that requires a lot more judgement, since you will have the option to do so more often than you will flop a monster. An ideal time to bet again is when you happen to pick up a draw. Even if it's only a gutshot, you'll have an additional way to win the pot, and you may have as many as 10 outs, so getting called is not exactly a disaster anymore. Speaking of draws, another time for a bet on the turn is when you have semi-bluffed the flop in position, and would normally take a free card. Not only does this counter your opponents tendency to call your bets on the flop, but it adds a lot of deception to your hand.
Let's say one person has limped and you raise on the button with Ah9h, and both blinds and the limper calls. Now the flop comes Kh-8d-4h and you bet when it is checked around to you. The blinds fold, but the limper calls, and the turn is a blank. If he checks again, checking behind is usually my default play, but since you need to mix up your play a bit, this is a great spot to do so. There's an additional advantage to betting here that might be less obvious than the ones I've previously mentioned. If he is slow-playing two pair or a set, he might go for the river check-raise, saving you money when you hit a nine (and maybe an ace as well, depending on your opponent) and check behind, as well as getting more money in the pot when you hit your flush. A last little bonus is the times when he's on a smaller heart draw and checks because he doesn't think he can bluff you off your hand, since you've been betting the whole way, and you take down the pot with ace high. It seems this turned into a monster of a post, I hope it helps you as well as me.

Riddim

NobAzn · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

I personally would have called you if I had a pocket pair, bet the flop but if the turn is a blank why fire any more into a calling station. If he checks when you miss the river are you going to bet again. The answer is no, if he can call you on the preflop, flop, and turn how big of a bet do you have to risk to try to get him off his hand. That is the million dollar question. I have seen people make donkey call with bottem pair with on 2,3,5,7,8, but I find this call to be a good read on turn and river. Stu Unger said it best when he said it takes brave person to fire 2 shells into a pot, but is the other person brave enough to call those bets, in your situation the answer is yes.

slickrick0786 · Full House Joined: 08 Jan 2006 Posts: 160

AmplifiedSAE · Two Pair Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 67

I've done both in the same situaion. Like others have said, it depends on your read and the your opponent.

I agree with Gypsydc when she argues that in cash games, you can wait for better spots to put money into the pot. Unless a had a good read and could put him on a hand, I'd probably check and wait for a better spot. Checking gives you a free card, an Ace or a Queen would probably win it for you.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

If you're a standard tight/agressive ABC-style player, folding here every time won't do much damage, but if you're somewhat of a LAG, that simply isn't an option. I'm not going to elaborate further, since I've already explained my views on what to do.

Guest · Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject:

I think your C-bet is too small on the flop. Pot the flop, and 1/2 the time 3/4 pot the turn, 1/2 the time give up and check.

If you've showed down a big hand recently, be more inclined to bet. If you are cold decked, check.

Desperate Math · Guest

It's pretty standard to call a raise on the flop with the intention of taking it away from the bettor on the turn. So if I'm first to act, I'll bet on the turn to take the pot from the raiser. If I'm in position, and the turn's been checked to me, wether I hit a hand or not, generallly if I don't think the guys much of a player I'll bet. If the guys tricky, I might check, or bet small to find out where I am. But again, the small bet or check may show weakness. It's certainly a quandry...

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