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Crimson Pride
High Card
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: An opinion on why alot of razz players play poorly(chase) |
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| Someone asked me during a game Monday after I had commented on poor play if I wanted them(fish) to play better. I told her I really didn't care one way or the other, but that I just didn't understand the motivation for playing so wrecklessly. Even though I don't understand their motivation, IMHO, and as I have stated several times during the games I play in, I believe some people have very, very little, if any, respect for money. Maybe they're just wealthy enough to carelessly toss around money like it's confetti. Maybe their ego is so big that they simply can't stand seeing someone else win. Or maybe it's something else that I'm not thinking of. I know that sometimes my ego gets bruised and I play poorly, but I don't throw around money just to see it fly! Hell no! I'll just wait for a better hand. One will be dealt shortly. But that's just my opinion. |
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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7910
Location: Isle of Tilt
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| I think a lot of poor play in razz comes from not knowing the odds. |
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IAmTheVietcong
Straight Flush
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 355
Location: College
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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They chase because their hand can change so easily. From worst to first with one card. It's always an up and down thing.
It's one of the major reasons why I hate Razz. |
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AllInDrawinDead
Royal Flush
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 615
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't understand how someone can not only chase with a facecard showing, but actually raise with it. I'll reraise because I have the best and they'll come back over the top. Usually they do it because they have four to a made hand but I don't get why they wouldn't just call instead of charging themselves three bets to see another card. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| AllInDrawinDead wrote: |
| I don't understand how someone can not only chase with a facecard showing, but actually raise with it. I'll reraise because I have the best and they'll come back over the top. Usually they do it because they have four to a made hand but I don't get why they wouldn't just call instead of charging themselves three bets to see another card. |
I had an interesting situation a few days weeks ago involving raising with a face card. I don't have the hand history handy, but here's the gist of it:
I brought in with a K showing, and he completed with an 8. Since I had A-3 in the hole, I elected to call (he completed every bet I brought in - every single one. It was great). I will do this fairly often Heads Up if the player has been very aggressive. 4th street brought a 2 for me, and a 6 for him. He bet, I called. On fifth, I got a 6, giving me K632A, and he got a J, giving him J86xx. He bet again, and I raised - yes, he has the best hand, but both of us are drawing, and my draw is much prettier than his. He thinks for a few seconds, and types, "you have K-high (first sign of an inexperienced RAZZ player - it's K-LOW, not K-high) - I raise!"
He did indeed put in the third bet, and I capped it. I ended up winning the pot when my 7-6 beat out his 9-8.
Just to show that sometimes, raising with a facecard showing isn't a bad move at all - but not very often, and never in a multiway pot (unless of course it's 6th and you have a great made hand). |
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AlexScottUK
Straight Flush
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 416
Location: Isle of Man
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Jaconda's got that one spot on. One of the well known statistics of Razz is that a four-card wheel is a significant favourite over any nine on fifth street (excluding weird exposed card situations).
That logic extends to other situations where your opponent clearly has the best made hand but you're drawing under them. Sometimes raising when you know you have only a slight edge is daunting, but not being able to put in raises like this is what seperates the sick dogs from the pack. |
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fmny
High Card
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| AlexScottUK wrote: |
| Jaconda's got that one spot on. One of the well known statistics of Razz is that a four-card wheel is a significant favourite over any nine on fifth street (excluding weird exposed card situations). |
Any made nine eh? OK Alex, I'll take my made nine (A2349) against your wheel draw with a face all day. I'll also take my made 23459 against your draw and even my 34569 against your wheel draw. |
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AlexScottUK
Straight Flush
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 416
Location: Isle of Man
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Good point. Perhaps I should've said 'any nine that isn't also a very good draw'. Or 'most nines'. |
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AllInDrawinDead
Royal Flush
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 615
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Just to show that sometimes, raising with a facecard showing isn't a bad move at all - but not very often, and never in a multiway pot (unless of course it's 6th and you have a great made hand). |
Very nice hand Jaconda. I was defenitely not referring to this type of hand. I should have said:
How can someone raise with a face card showing against what appears to be a made hand?
Your opponent had a J showing so both of you were on a draw and yours was superior to his. I'm pretty sure the players I'm talking about have no idea what probability even means. |
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duelindalton
Pair
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 38
Location: Tampa
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Granted noone wants paint in thier first up card. But you have A2 in the whole and evry1 folded except the guy b4 you and he raises with 7-9 showing. You see this person raise evrytim he is low on third card, so what you just give up your "bring in". Those are the times when to raise back and since I pick my time to do it, more often then naught they fold cuz they had two paint in the hole and were only playing the up cards and relying on me to fold that brick. Now when the blinds are huge of course you dont take the chance for obvious reasons, but when they are low and its a limit game......its a small gamble. Hell I see people take a bigger gamble when they fill up their clunkers tank and the dam thing dies the next day. Play smart but remember 1 brick should take the wind out of your sails but not sink you. |
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AllInDrawinDead
Royal Flush
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 615
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| In a multi way pot with at least two others in the hand, its going to be very hard to justify continuing after hitting a Q on 4th after your opponents both caught good. |
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SaintMisbehavin
High Card
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Quick response to the "draw to a wheel versus made 9" argument:
A quick trip to twodimes.com tells me that 9732A and K5432 are a virtual dead heat, with less than half a percent in favour to the latter.
So let's just say that a draw to a wheel is a favourite versus a made 97, modulo poison cards, and a "big" (>5%) favourite versus a made 98. |
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Rushinankil
High Card
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Dorset UK!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| SaintMisbehavin wrote: |
Quick response to the "draw to a wheel versus made 9" argument:
A quick trip to twodimes.com tells me that 9732A and K5432 are a virtual dead heat, with less than half a percent in favour to the latter.
So let's just say that a draw to a wheel is a favourite versus a made 97, modulo poison cards, and a "big" (>5%) favourite versus a made 98. |
In razz a 4 card bicycle on fifth street is a 6-5 favourite over a rough nine made (56:44) therefore we should willing to bet our king low in this situation in favour of our better draw.
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ks 4s 3s 2s 282310 56.46 217690 43.54 0 0.00 0.565
9d 8d 7d 6d 3d 217690 43.54 282310 56.46 0 0.00 0.435 |
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SaylorMarsh
Two Pair
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 67
Location: Mishawaka, IN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bad players chase because bad players like to chase. Doesn't matter whether it's razz, hold'em, or five-card draw. |
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