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Zophar · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: 50PLO8 Coordinated Junk

Some may ask why. Some may understand it.

3 major considerations preflop:
Position
Initial raiser and MP stack sizes
semi-coordinated suited lows

Flop considerations:
Texture
Equity vs. range
Position

Discuss

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
The Official Hand Converter

BTN: $57.20
SB: $90.50
BB: $93.35
UTG: $5.85
MP: $20.50
Hero (CO): $50.20

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with 5 Heart

9

6

3

UTG raises to $1.75, MP calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.75, BTN calls $1.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($7.75) 3 Spade

T

9

(4 players)
UTG bets $4.10 all in, MP calls $4.10, Hero raises to $24.15, BTN calls $24.15, MP calls $14.65 all in

Turn: ($78.90) 4 Heart

(4 players - 2 are all in)
Hero bets $24.30 all in, BTN calls $24.30

River: ($127.50) 2 Spade

Final Pot: $127.50
BTN shows 8 Heart

2

J

A

(HI: a pair of Twos; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)
UTG shows K Club

2

4

K

(HI: two pair, Fours and Twos)
MP shows 7 Heart

K

J

A

(HI: Ace King high; LO: 7,4,3,2,A)
Hero shows 5 Heart

9

6

3

(HI: a straight, Six high; LO: 6,5,4,3,2)

cardfish2 · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject:

I understand perfectly. You made a bad play and got rewarded.

cubbies760 · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject:

Without looking at the results, here's my thoughts.

With UTG being the raiser, and being on an extremely short stack, he's gonna be shoving the flop. MP looks like he's got some sort of marginal low possibility hand, and maybe a weakish high drawing hand, and wants to see a flop before getting more involved. I think your hand plays well against multiple opponents, as the right flop can almost guarantee you 1/2 of the pot if it continues to be multi-way. The BTN is along for the ride because of his stack size and pot odds to see the flop.

Another thought is that you have everything besides what you'd think your opponents are playing. Some may be playing ace low hands, and others braodway cards and PPs. You're right in the middle, with enough other low cards to sneak into a low when the others' lows get counterfeited.

The flop is where I get confused. The only thing I see is that you're trying to muscle MP out, and to keep the only guy that threatens your stack (BTN) out of the hand. You do have at least a decent chance for high, but you need to thin the field now, which is why I think you (re-)potted. This flop sucks royally for anyone playing for low, so it should thin the field (but didn't, lol).

If you're pushing that flop for any other reasons, then I'm stumped.

Now you're going into the turn with everyone in the pot on a flop that wouldn't typically warrant so many players to the turn. The turn is a great card for what seemed to be an isolation raise OTF. Now you've gotta shove to get the BTN to fold, while having decent equity with your OK made hand and draws. Let's not forget that even if the river is another low card, the villians may be getting counterfeited, and with your boat/straight/low possibilities, you've gotta get the rest of your chips in and hope the BTN folds. Even if he calls, you're not in horrible shape.

With all that said, I still havent looked at the results, and I can't wait to see what these guys had. The river is obv golden for you, so I have to LOL. NH.

FTR, BTN must be horrible. He either flopped a set and played it badly, or he's a donk.

Zophar · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject:

if you are unwilling to call a re raise or a three bet then you are eliminating crucial elements to your game. first of all people will never give you action if they know all your gonna do is limp in pots and nutpeddle, 2ndly you are depriving yourself of massive implied odds after you hit the flop. us pl08 players pride ourselves in our postflop play and thats what gives us edges in games. therefore if you are not willing to call a re raise (esp with cordinated suited connectors) then you really arent playing good poker.

The above is a quote from an incredibly good plo8 player, and when I read it a while back it really struck a note with me, as it was somewhat contradictory to my line of thinking at the time. I started to pour over his and a few other comparable players hand histories and at first was thinking they were just luckboxes, etc. But they really weren't. They were big winners in the game($400-$2k games), for a reason. It boiled down to this-playing marginal hands aggressively in specific spots will lead to so much more action for premiums.

The implied odds in these spots(coordinated lows/highs in raised multiway pots, when one or more players has a reasonable % of their stack commited) can be huge and most PLO8 hands aren't as nearly as strong as players perceive when played multiway. They are typically strong only one way and often have little counterfeit protection for low.

UTG was short, MP was short and BTN(very familiar with, fairly standard hand selection, rarely gets out of line) plays fit or fold. My intentions post flop were pretty much determined preflop and often are in most of these spots. I was jamming most straight draw/flush draw boards and many 2pr spots. Realistically, the only spots I'm not jamming are complete misses and ridiculous nut spots that I feel are near the top of the BTN's range. Most of the spots that I'm pushing I'll have atleast 30% equity in and have no problem doing it for 40bb's.

This flop was perfect imo, and UTG's allin and MP's call's even made my decision that much easier. I really only have 2 options on a flop like this, raise or fold. And I can't imagine folding. Likely I have the best hand on the flop and it rarely fits the BTNs range. By raising him out, I'm increasing my equity and minimizing my additional blind commitment. I actually don't want MP to fold because he's who I'm really looking to get value out of. Surprisingly, the BTN did call.

The turn's pretty standard as I've picked up the OESD and my equity I think has increased vs. the BTN, who is now my source of value. If he had a set, NFD or top 2, he's RR OTF. I'm now thinking maybe a pair with weak draw and backdoor low OTF and only the backdoor low got any closer and I have 1 blocker to the wheel.

Aside from actually winning the hand, many productive things came out of this. My regular opponents will give me a lot less credit, which is huge value-wise as the pool of PL/NLO8 player pool is fairly small. My sets, NFD+, wheel-wraps etc will become so much more profitable. Also, I found a way to specifically exploit another reg.

Edit- My overall point is- If you play 6 max PL/NLO8 vs. competent opponents and you sit and try to nut peddle, your winrate will suck.

cardfish2 · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject:

If you're playing a meta game to get more paid off in the future that is fine. I really don't think you need to for 25�/50� but what do I know.

Other than that I disagree with much of what you said there. If you consider bottom 2 pair to be a perfect flop I think you are setting yourself up to lose money. Personally, I would have insta folded that flop.

cubbies760 · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject:

I understand everything you stated, and it's basically how I thought about the hand. I know I wouldn't have played it as such, but I did see what your train of thought was.

With that said (and after seeing the results), explain the BTN's play, since you have history on him. It appears to me that he played that hand pretty badly.

Zophar · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject:

Zophar · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject:

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