|
| Author |
Message |
kinkydude
High Card
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: A fun and effective higher level play |
 |
|
I'm sure some of you are familiar with solid basic plays, like the "Stop N Go" and the "Hammer" (if you're not, go out and get Harrington on Hold'em immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.)
But what about some more advanced plays? Here's one of the arrows in my quiver that I've had great success with.
"Straight Flush Overpair Crush" - My name, but can't take credit for the play. I read it in one of my many, many poker books. Probably Eric Lindren's "Making the Final Table".
Villan limps in 1st position. (For those of you new to the game, often this means AA or KK and occasionally QQ)
You have 9h8h. You call.
BB limps.
Board - 10h 3h 7s.
1st pos checks.
You bet.
BB folds.
1st pos raises. (big pairs almost always raise into a small, disjointed board, figuring you either hit one pair, or just a flush or straight draw - and they will bet enough to deny you odds if they know what they're doing. Even if they don't, they see those big, shiny aces or kings and just can't bear to part with them).
You PUSH.
Why? Because you are favored to win against any big pair, (about 56%) and in tolerably good shape in the very, very unlikely event that he has trips (about 40%). One of two things will happen. They will call, thinking you have AT or lower, or fold, thinking you hit your trips. Either way you're in great shape.
What's the downside? Your hand whiffs entirely, and you happily check and fold it knowing you only bet 1BB. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6371
Location: One Hope
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| standard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2305
Location: New Hampshire
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| standard. |
Yes, although two extra points:
1.
| kinkydude wrote: |
| Villan limps in 1st position. (For those of you new to the game, often this means AA or KK and occasionally QQ) |
Whether villain limped UTG is irrelevant to this play.
2.
Using this against someone who will never fold isn't always the best strategy in a tournament, since without FE you are basically always flipping. In this case you have tons of implied odds (since he'll call down pretty much anything, but almost no FE, making it smarter to call/check the guy down and only get it all in if you hit. (Actually, this can often be a better strategy against a CS in a cash game as well, because you are essentially minimizing your losses while still usually maximizing your winnings.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinkydude
High Card
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
1. Not sure I can agree with you here, for two reasons. a) You're exposing yourself to more risk if you call a raise than if you call a limp. b) Two suited cards the same suit as yours cut your winning chances tremendously, and there aren't many people who won't call a push with AKs with two of a suit on a board like that. The reason I chose a limp is because it's been an accurate indicator of a big pair in the level of tournaments I play.
2. I think you're underestimating your FE here. Since you're in +EV territory already, even a 10% FE gives you a big advantage. Plus, with a push here, he won't know if you're on a draw or already made your hand. A call screams out "flush draw" to me. If I'm on the other side and they miss their draw, you can bet I'm not giving them pot odds to call the next card. Of course, that never stops people from donking you out by calling anyway...
I know I'm splitting hairs here. Some advocate that anytime you're better than 50% to win, a push is a perfectly acceptable move. I don't believe this in tournament play (I turn down perceived coin flips all the time) but I don't think this move, as described, falls into coin flip territory due to the odds and the FE.
I love to hear differing opinions, though. I think wrangling through these hands is a great way to increase your appreciation for the game and some of the finer points of play. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2305
Location: New Hampshire
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kinkydude wrote: |
| 1. Not sure I can agree with you here, for two reasons. a) You're exposing yourself to more risk if you call a raise than if you call a limp. |
I'm assuming here that the player is a reasonably competent player and, say, knows the difference between calling a raise with an effective stack of 10xBB, and an effective stack of 100xBB.
Making a blanket statement that you should never call a raise with a SC is pretty silly/nitty.
| Quote: |
| b) Two suited cards the same suit as yours cut your winning chances tremendously, and there aren't many people who won't call a push with AKs with two of a suit on a board like that. The reason I chose a limp is because it's been an accurate indicator of a big pair in the level of tournaments I play. |
Are you seriously telling me that you aren't going to call a raise with a SC because the raiser might have two of the same suit?
| Quote: |
| 2. I think you're underestimating your FE here. |
How can I underestimate my FE when I have set up the hypothetical situation to deliberately have very little FE? If you want to talk about a different hypothetical situation, fine, but when I talk about "using this against someone who will never fold," I am not talking about the times when we are against someone who will fold.
| Quote: |
| Since you're in +EV territory already, even a 10% FE gives you a big advantage. Plus, with a push here, he won't know if you're on a draw or already made your hand. A call screams out "flush draw" to me. If I'm on the other side and they miss their draw, you can bet I'm not giving them pot odds to call the next card. Of course, that never stops people from donking you out by calling anyway... |
This is totally irrelevant, because not all players play like you. What I wrote applies, like I said, only to players you know can't fold.
| Quote: |
| I know I'm splitting hairs here. Some advocate that anytime you're better than 50% to win, a push is a perfectly acceptable move. I don't believe this in tournament play (I turn down perceived coin flips all the time) but I don't think this move, as described, falls into coin flip territory due to the odds and the FE. |
It does when you are up against a passive player who can't fold TP or better. I.e. when you have no FE. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wayniac
Forum Pro
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 657
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have no agree with nilgiri here. Yes, this is a great play if you've got fold equity. If you are up against a call station or somebody who will never lay down their big pairs, then you are effectively calling off your chips on a coin flip.
If you know they aren't folding, what fold equity have you got?
On the flip side, we can all agree that if you know that there is a good chance they fold, by pushing, you are far more than just a coin flip to win this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dcdoorknob
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 1284
Location: Mississippi
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't mean to pile on, but I'm familiar with this play, so it can't be that high level of a play.
Oh, and I'm that guy that will just not ever fold an overpair in this spot. Hi, how ya doin. Nice to meet you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenDomer9
Forum CAPtain
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 2020
Location: Set Mining
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: A fun and effective higher level play |
|
|
| kinkydude wrote: |
I'm sure some of you are familiar with solid basic plays, like the "Stop N Go" and the "Hammer" (if you're not, go out and get Harrington on Hold'em immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.)
But what about some more advanced plays? Here's one of the arrows in my quiver that I've had great success with.
"Straight Flush Overpair Crush" - My name, but can't take credit for the play. I read it in one of my many, many poker books. Probably Eric Lindren's "Making the Final Table".
Villan limps in 1st position. (For those of you new to the game, often this means AA or KK and occasionally QQ)
You have 9h8h. You call.
BB limps.
Board - 10h 3h 7s.
1st pos checks.
You bet.
BB folds.
1st pos raises. (big pairs almost always raise into a small, disjointed board, figuring you either hit one pair, or just a flush or straight draw - and they will bet enough to deny you odds if they know what they're doing. Even if they don't, they see those big, shiny aces or kings and just can't bear to part with them).
You PUSH.
Why? Because you are favored to win against any big pair, (about 56%) and in tolerably good shape in the very, very unlikely event that he has trips (about 40%). One of two things will happen. They will call, thinking you have AT or lower, or fold, thinking you hit your trips. Either way you're in great shape.
What's the downside? Your hand whiffs entirely, and you happily check and fold it knowing you only bet 1BB. |
This is all terrible imo. I don't even know where to start. First, semi-bluffing with OESFD's is far from revolutionary, but even your delivery of this basic play is far off.
If you put UTG limpers' range as QQ+ then you are being ridiculous. I see huge ranges in this spot, heavily slanted towards weak hands. Ya know what, I'm not even going any further because I've had about seven too many arguments about moronic hand analysis this week. Meh, whatever. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LostOstrich
Forum Ostrich
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 4968
Location: lookingfor sex good looking sexy girls imo
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Re: A fun and effective higher level play |
|
|
| GoldenDomer9 wrote: |
| kinkydude wrote: |
I'm sure some of you are familiar with solid basic plays, like the "Stop N Go" and the "Hammer" (if you're not, go out and get Harrington on Hold'em immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.)
But what about some more advanced plays? Here's one of the arrows in my quiver that I've had great success with.
"Straight Flush Overpair Crush" - My name, but can't take credit for the play. I read it in one of my many, many poker books. Probably Eric Lindren's "Making the Final Table".
Villan limps in 1st position. (For those of you new to the game, often this means AA or KK and occasionally QQ)
You have 9h8h. You call.
BB limps.
Board - 10h 3h 7s.
1st pos checks.
You bet.
BB folds.
1st pos raises. (big pairs almost always raise into a small, disjointed board, figuring you either hit one pair, or just a flush or straight draw - and they will bet enough to deny you odds if they know what they're doing. Even if they don't, they see those big, shiny aces or kings and just can't bear to part with them).
You PUSH.
Why? Because you are favored to win against any big pair, (about 56%) and in tolerably good shape in the very, very unlikely event that he has trips (about 40%). One of two things will happen. They will call, thinking you have AT or lower, or fold, thinking you hit your trips. Either way you're in great shape.
What's the downside? Your hand whiffs entirely, and you happily check and fold it knowing you only bet 1BB. |
This is all terrible imo. I don't even know where to start. First, semi-bluffing with OESFD's is far from revolutionary, but even your delivery of this basic play is far off.
If you put UTG limpers' range as QQ+ then you are being ridiculous. I see huge ranges in this spot, heavily slanted towards weak hands. Ya know what, I'm not even going any further because I've had about seven too many arguments about moronic hand analysis this week. Meh, whatever. |
What he said. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeffr8
Inspector Gadget
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 1493
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
how often does this situation come up anyhow? Seriously...
How often do people flop OESFDs? And, out of that slim ammount of times you do flop an OESFD whats the chance that your opponent will have a overpair? If those chances arent slim enough, whats the chances the betting patterns will go similar to what your OP's brilliant play requires.
Overall worthless post imo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2305
Location: New Hampshire
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jeffr8 wrote: |
| Overall worthless post imo |
Meh, I kind of agree. On the other hand, it is a specific example of a more general concept: being aggressive with good draws. Maybe some folks can learn from that.
Ok, now that I think more about it, I think this post is actually bad. It encourages people to think about poker situations as very specific, (where there is a very specific line to take). This post would be fine if the example were an illustration of the much more general concept of being aggressive with good draws, but instead it is an example of a very specific situation: having an OESD/FD in position facing an aggressive UTG limper. And it recommends a single line to take in this situation, regardless of other factors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
FAQ
Search
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
