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docjsh · High Card Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 2

So what is your opinion?

I am pretty new to omaha, but it seems to me that if the table allows, it is best to limp into almost any hand because your hand doesn't really take shape until the flop has come.

What are the draw backs to that?

If you disagree, why?

What kinds of hands would you raise the blinds with?

I also play very tight at my level (.05/.10 PL) after the flop. I want the nuts, my hand pairing with every card on the flop or pairing with nut straight or flush draws (preferably both). In other words, if I don't have the nuts, I'm unlikely to play unless I have tons of outs.

Am I playing too tight?

What are some strategies for post flop play?

Thanks for any help that comes down.

Kloaked Spirit · Royal Flush Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 869

It's not best to limp in with just any hand, even when the rest of the table is doing it. With more cards out there working against you, you know you have to draw to the nuts or have them to keep playing after the flop. So you'd want to enter with hands that have a good shot of getting you the nuts or a draw to it.

A good rule of thumb that I used when I started out was this question "What type of flops would I like to see with this hand?" The more specific my answer was, the worse the omaha usually was.

Take for example if you had AAKK double suited. I could list a whole bunch of flops that help. Any flop with an A, a flop with a K, a QJT flop, or anything to help one of the two potential flush draws that you have will become a great chance of you having the nuts or drawing to it.

Now if you have something like K279 rainbow, your answer for a great flop is restricted. Maybe a flopped boat, flopped 4 of a kind, or 5-6-8 rainbow, but that's about it. Even then, except with a 4 of a kind, you probably won't want to make the hand go all the way to the river.

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I've always been pretty confused about when and where to raise in PLO, but generally you'll want to raise from late position far more often then early position. In fact, in Super System 2 the advice says never to raise from early position. If I'm going to raise, I want to do it with 4 cards that work very well together, but you'll have to develop your own judgment.

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The way you play after the flop is exactly how you want to play in these low level games. The nuts will generally be out there, and you want it (preferably with redraws) or a strong draw to it (something beyond just an open ended straight draw.) One other thing is that a huge draw (20 outs or more) can be a favorite over hands like a set. If you find yourself in that position with the drawing hand, get your money in there as if you've hit it already. You're the favorite at this point so make it pay off while they're still willing to pay you with their "best hand."

Finally, drawing to second best hands (e.g. King high flush, underfull boats) can and will drain you of all your cash.

asw63 · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:50 am Post subject:

I play a fair amount of PL 5/10 cent and I play somewhat tight to start. I like the limper tables myself, I dont sit at one for long if its raised alot preflop UNLESS I hit a big pot early. Whats worked for me is play tight until I hit and then the more I'm up the more I play, once Ive got 2 to 4 times the max buyin I play almost every hand (short of a set down) if its cheap and if I hit the flop great if not muck it. also chase if its cheap, MUCK if it costs. and dont call with 3rd or 4th best on the river if youre at a table where 6 to 10 ppl are in its the nuts or the muck.
Better players than I will say Im wrong but works for me.

docjsh · High Card Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 2

Thanks for the advice guys.

Kloaked Spirit: I don't limp in with any old hand; folding probably 2 out of every 3 or more. More than others I play against, but I'm in 3 or 4 times as many hands as I am in Holdem.

That said, I would probably limp or make a small raise even if I had AAKK double suited. It just seems to me that even with the best starting hand, it's not worth spending too much to see the flop, because there are too many flops that make it completely useless.

asw63: If you're getting up to $30-40 in .05/.10 PL omaha, you're much better than I am, so if you're limping in too, then I think my ideas are relatively sound.

I do have to say that I love the people who come to the low-limit tables with between $2-5 to try it out. You can make some quick bucks with those types of players.

DevilfishFan · Royal Flush Joined: 09 Sep 2005 Posts: 906

The tight tables are the ones you want to avoid. When you finally hit one of your hands you won't get any action.

AlexScottUK · Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject:

In Lyle Berman's Pot Limit Omaha section in Super System II, he advocates limping quite frequently with a wide variety of hands. There's more to it than that of course, but the gist of it is that unless you can commit most of your stack preflop you shouldn't bother raising too often. I've used this strategy fairly successfully in the cash games - in tournaments the blinds are worth stealing so a different strategy is called for.

iuz the old · Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

Play super tight and you cant lose long term provided you match it with super aggression when you hit a flop. When you have a set of queens on a QT5 double suited flop dont get coy by betting half the pot - Jam it! I see too many people slowplay these hands or try to build a pot when a flush or str8 turn card ruins them on the turn. Any good player at the table will know exactly what you have and will fold his marginal draws , two pair or set of 55s or even TTs but most people at the lower limits are not good players and will call or more likely raise you all in! They only see their own hand and usually wont even try to work out what you have and even though its staring them in the face they often will persuade themselves that you are the one pushing the draw!
The consistent money in PL Omaha or (O8 for that matter) is made from the overcallers who are drawing thin or dead - dont be one of them! Play hands that have nut possibilities (note the plural) and have at least two combinations going for them , only play premiums from the first three positions and dont ever put the first raise in with AAxx. This is the coup de grace hand - the hand that nails the steamers and takes in big pots pre flop and on the flop so reraise only and always. Again strong players realise that the second raise means aces and will fold ( although some will play a strong wrap ,eg. 9TJQ and up,against it) while the weaker ones will call trying hit a flop which they will occasionally do and bust you but you still do it. If no one raises and you have to limp your aces you will have great deceptive value if you hit your set and might easily stack a lower set while getting away cheap when the flop misses you.
Avoid pair combinations below TTs as there is too much danger in hitting an underset which will cost you your stack and low straight wraps ie. 4567 and lower because it is too likely that you will flop to the low end of a straight and even a perfect flop may not hold up by the river.
Drawing to the 2nd or 3rd best flush ? enough said? Remember you cant draw to these hands if you dont play them and if do , remind yourself why you are. Eg. You play K9heartsQJspades , the flop comes K84 all spades and two opponents start betting and raising . Before you start persuading yourself that your Q high flush might be good (which it isn't you are likely against the nut flush and a set) remember that the main reason you played this holding was to hit the straight .
By playing this way you may end up playing even less hands than you would in hold'em but you will realise bigger profit because your edge is much greater against weaker players who play every mediocre holding.

AlexScottUK · Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Re:

iuz the old · Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject:

Good point Alex but depending on the size of the reraise the price of your speculation might be too high bearing in mind that you will probably be throwing away that hand on the flop most of the time. I should probably have said that after reraising with AAxx you can be aggressive on broken flops but when a straight or a flush actually flops you might be in trouble against more than one opponent.
Playing these flops can bust you but heads up your opponent may not like that flop either and even if he puts you on AAxx he doesnt know what your xx is. The other point is that by reraising you want to get heads up so that you maximise your chances of still having the best hand on the flop. That is precisely the point why you dont put the 1st raise in with AAxx as every bottom feeder (and I dont mean you Alex lol) will get their price to play every pair and half draw against you.

berlin32 · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:25 am Post subject:

Good post iuz, here's some interesting things I've noticed with aces in cash games versus tourneys.

When I'm in the later stages of MTTs, people will raise hard, and more importantly respect pre flop raises. What I've found in cash games is that even if I raise with my double sooooted aces, its getting called by almost everyone that limped every time. Sooooooo, I am no longer raising with aces, no matter how pretty they look, even from late position. Now at the higher limits, this may be somewhat more effective, but at the 5c/10c limit tables it doesn't play. You will get the same amount of action with the same pot odds by limping and seeing the flop cheaply so you can get away from the hand if the flop doesn't hit you.

I would say that big pairs in general are the most overplayed hands in PLO. I would rather have a wrap any day than aces or kings. I actually dread seeing them in my hand Smile

iuz the old · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:

Alex , your distinction btwn. cash games and tourneys is well taken and I do play aces less aggressively in cash games. That said I have made some major killings in loose cash games when limp reraising this hand (esp the gorgeous 4th raise) allows me to get heads up against a dominant hand. What makes you money here is that often your opponent is playing a lower pair which you dominate rather than a good wrap which you may only be a slight favorite against. The key of course is to isolate and although no hand in omaha is a prohibitive favorite over any other (unlike hold'em) I'll happily take on anything with AA double suited.
I love wraps in omaha too but I like lots of callers with them.

berlin32 · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

interesting. I'll have to keep that in mind. I have a feeling the strategy works better in cash games at higher limits where the cash "really matters" since people will call anything down (bless their souls) when its only a buck or two. They might not call that big turn bet when its $10-$20 though, although I've had some chasers do it anyways (heck I've done it myself, lol).

DevilfishFan · Royal Flush Joined: 09 Sep 2005 Posts: 906

Championship Omaha is a great book. I highly recommend it. The Omaha games where I play were once profitable, but I think word got out. You never see a .10 game without 3 or 4 players with $40 or more. (max buy-in is 20)

EzmoneyDRE · Flush Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 133 Location: Texas

I limp in with almost all my hands. If you make a pot sized raise pre flop it wont be enough to do anything. If you're playing .10/.25 a pot sized raise will only be around 1.50 anyways.

Telepath · High Card Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 8

It depends.

I raise with double suited aces hard. This is because I am fine with playing big multiway pots with them, but I'm also fine with getting all-in preflop.

Good drawing hands (Think 89TJ with two suits, QJKA, JJQK with suits, etc) I tend to raise moderately for value preflop. Bare aces you really only raise to try to isolate. Aces with no suits I will call a two way all in with, otherwise I won't raise at all.

[EDIT: Calling rainbow aces all in preflop really depends on who you're dealing with. If you're reasonably sure the other guy has aces as well, it's an awful call.]

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