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Flying_Kiwi
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6534
Location: somewhere spacific
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 Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Folding KK preflop at $10NL |
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I know we've had this discussion before and I've always been of the opinion you can't ever fold KK PF at $10NL, but I'm starting to change my mind.
Here's an example, when villain limp/reraises then lets timer run down before putting in the final raise - I was almost certain I was getting my money in bad here. Villain's been pretty tight and this was the first time I'd seen them open limp. Do you think you can fold in these situations?
Full Tilt Poker Game #7380079517: Table Tierra De Palmas - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 5:41:49 ET - 2008/07/26
Seat 1: rashini ($2.55)
Seat 2: Flying_Kiwi ($12.30)
Seat 3: Suburban BAyy ($10.15)
Seat 4: mdmanser ($8.25)
Seat 5: fanifac ($21.80)
Seat 6: jost1 ($0), is sitting out
Seat 7: Glukazavr ($4)
Seat 8: Yubuzhuo1 ($1.10)
Seat 9: royaljim ($1.85)
Flying_Kiwi posts the small blind of $0.05
Suburban BAyy posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Flying_Kiwi [Ks Kd]
jost1 stands up
mdmanser folds
InvisibleHand99 adds $10
fanifac calls $0.10
Yubuzhuo1 folds
royaljim folds
rashini folds
Flying_Kiwi raises to $0.40
Suburban BAyy has 15 seconds left to act
Suburban BAyy calls $0.30
fanifac raises to $1.60
Flying_Kiwi has 15 seconds left to act
Flying_Kiwi raises to $6
Suburban BAyy adds $0.25
Suburban BAyy folds
fanifac has 15 seconds left to act
fanifac raises to $16
Flying_Kiwi calls $6.30, and is all in |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8182
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Meh, not really. Once he shoves you're getting such good odds. You need to have ~25% equity and vs. only KK+ you're 22.6%. |
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renegades8
Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: griiiiinding
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| If you're going to make it $6 folding is really bad. As Riddim said you can't realistically put villain on a range that's KK+, which is the only range in which you should fold against. People are going to show up with all types of hands (AQ+, TT+, etc., possibly even worse) that you wouldn't expect, especially at 10NL. BTW you should probably raise to $0.50 pf. |
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Flying_Kiwi
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Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6534
Location: somewhere spacific
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| renegades8 wrote: |
| People are going to show up with all types of hands (AQ+, TT+, etc., possibly even worse) that you wouldn't expect |
Not this player.
| Quote: |
| BTW you should probably raise to $0.50 pf. |
Why? |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'd make a smaller 4 bet, maybe a little under $4. You need to give the illusion of fold equity if he has something like AK and wants to shove. Also, if you ever plan to move up in stakes, 4 betting to 2.5x will allow you to make 4 bets as bluffs for a much cheaper price while still allowing you to stack someone when you have a hand. I know its not that important at 10nl FR, but it is just something to think about. However, if you have seen this villian call 4 bets with 99 or TT type of hands, then I'd probably go ahead and make the larger 4 bet so you can get more value from those hands when the board flop overs (which they'd probably c/f).
And even against tight players, they will sometimes get it in with AK or QQ in this spot. They plan for a limp reraise with those hands and then freak out when they are 4 bet and don't know what to do and shove. It is a common thing. I would not fold that unless I had a very large sample of hands on a player and he has only taken that line with KK+. |
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renegades8
Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: griiiiinding
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
| renegades8 wrote: |
| People are going to show up with all types of hands (AQ+, TT+, etc., possibly even worse) that you wouldn't expect |
Not this player. |
Then why commit half your stack in the first place? I'm still not at all convinced that a player at 10NL is doing this with only KK+. As Riddim said, if villain is doing this with any other hands than KK+ then you have to call here. I still think that you'd be surprised with some of the hands villain shows up with here when you call. Sure they have AA this time, but that doesn't mean they'll have it every time. Just because this is the first time they open limped and then reraised doesn't really seem like enough to make you think it's just those two hands. When they let the timer run down that really makes me think that they're gonna have a wider range than you'd expect here, at 10NL this actually looks pretty weak like ~TT+, AQ+ where they're really not sure what to do so they just shove at the last second.
| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
| renegades8 wrote: |
| BTW you should probably raise to $0.50 pf. |
Why? |
Generally speaking you want to raise 4x+1x/limp, especially at the micros. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2110
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
| renegades8 wrote: |
| People are going to show up with all types of hands (AQ+, TT+, etc., possibly even worse) that you wouldn't expect |
Not this player. |
You need a lot of hands to make that read. Not saying you don't have them, but I'd be very surprised if you do. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8182
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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When it's this close, thinking he won't shove worse isn't enough, you have to pretty much be certain of it. One single combination of another hand on average is enough to make the call here. Even when his range is just KK+, calling is a very small mistake. On the other hand, folding when his range is wider is a very big mistake.
Not to mention that 4-betting big enough to really force him to push or fold when you can't call a shove means that you're bluffing. If you really think his shoving range is tight enough to even consider folding KK here, the 4-bet in itself is terrible. Why are you bluffing with KK PF? |
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Flying_Kiwi
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6534
Location: somewhere spacific
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Folding KK preflop at $10NL |
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| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
fanifac raises to $1.60
Flying_Kiwi has 15 seconds left to act
Flying_Kiwi |
Of course once I make the 4-bet I'm always calling. But I'm meaning here is where I seriously thought about folding (NB: no results are posted). Once I raised again here I've made the decision to get it in - and I accept what people are saying, it's probably the right decision and only a small mistake vs big mistake of folding.
But how often, if ever, will you have a read strong enough to fold here? I really was 50/50 on this decision and nearly did it but then had the whole forum's voice in the back of my head saying 'you're an idiot if you fold KK PF at this level'. I just can't help but get the feeling there's some players at this level who will play AA a certain way, and only AA. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8182
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah if you have a good enough read folding to the limp-RR is obv best, but it will almost always be bad because people also show up with a bunch of dumb stuff or at least worse big pairs. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Folding KK preflop at $10NL |
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| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
| I just can't help but get the feeling there's some players at this level who will play AA a certain way, and only AA. |
I am positive this is true. The problem is figuring out who these players are. You need a lot of hands to be sure a player never plays this way with QQ (or worse). |
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PokerJessO
Straight Flush
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 415
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| The only way I'm folding KK pre-flop is if I KNOW the player is extremely tight/passive. It seems like you didn't have enough info to be sure that this player is a complete mouse. |
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Starvingwriter
Full House
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| My main issue with the read of only AA is that at the lower levels, the vast majority of people will play AA, KK, AKs, and sometimes QQ the same way - that they have the nuts and they want all their money in ASAP. I haven't yet seen much play that "typically" separates these hands when played by the "average joe" player, and in this case, even if his range is only AA, KK, or AK, you're still calling. |
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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: the pale blue dot
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Starvingwriter wrote: |
| My main issue with the read of only AA is that at any level, the vast majority of people will play AA, KK, AKs, and sometimes QQ the same way |
FYP |
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jjpregler
Forum Pro
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 1449
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| The only time I ever folded KK PF is when a player had a PFR% of less than 1% and i quickly checked on Pokertracker and the only other 2 hands he raised in about 500 hands was AA and AA. Of course I folded and someone called and sure enough he had AA. But unless I am that certain, I will probably take my lumps if he has AA, because many times people get out of line with QQ, JJ and AK as well. |
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