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StevieWard
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 1552
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 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Blackburne wrote: |
I'll tell you my theory, which I've posted before and nobody seems to believe. Here it is:
Full Tilt has invented a game of luck that they've presented in a poker based format. Good players lose more often than they should, and bad players win more often. The cards on Full Tilt really do mean nothing until the river where they're used to determine the winner. The odds of the better hand winning are not the same as in real life. They've done this because the good players have to play longer to profit as much as they should, and the bad players don't lose all of their money as fast as they should. Bad players are actually fooled into thinking they are good or that they can compete with good players, because on Full Tilt the luck factor makes it an almost even matchup. They don't realize they're outmatched and give up poker like they should, instead they keep coming back. All the while Full Tilt is literally raking in the money. More pots and tournaments have to be played (i.e. more rakes) in order to achieve the same results as in real life.
I realize posting this is pointless, because the people who created the site don't read these or need to be told their site is rigged, and these forums are full of the delusional players I've talked about who think they're better than they are. The 1st thing they'll do is attack my skills as a player, call me a donk and such, or say I should just not play here. If I knew a site where the cards were random I'd go, trust me. I want to play poker, not Full Tilt "poker". I've been to Absolute Poker (the worst I've seen), Party Poker, Ultimate Bet and some others, they're all about the same. This is the closest thing to poker I can find without driving to a casino. Just imagine how great it would be to play actual poker with countless people from around the world without leaving your house. For now it's just a dream. |
Have you ever thought online poker is perhaps not for you? There IS a difference. I play better online than I do live, and I play better online agianst better players than I do live against my idiot mates in home games. I can win $50 NL games on here - I cant even beat my friends who know little about poker for $5.
Just because you can beat live games does not mean you will automatically profit online, and vice versa. |
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Raulsta
High Card
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The Problem with this site is that the best hand will loose alot more than in real life poker. If you on a flush draw with two cards to come i found that the amount of times a chasing player will hit is alot more than in reality. Also they do like to do their cold decks alot. For example i was just playing a game, had that j's and flopped trips with 2 other players in the pot and in position, the flop is like A-J-3 rainbow so i'm not 2 afraid and i cold call the bet of about 1/3 the pot, the turn is a harmless 6 still rainbow and i re-raise all in to find that the guys had aces. now i know that this is poker and it happens from time 2 time and he was the pre flop favourite but what gets to me is the amount of times i am faced with this situation. it's really bad because i feel that eventually i will be picking up bad habits etc due to the unrealistic flops. does anyone know a proper poker site where this has happened alot less as i'm sick to death of full tilt creating situations where the guy hit's his 1 outer or runner runner straights happening 12 times in a 9 seater game. sorry to rant but i'm annoyed. Also all the people who complain about people saying the site is "rigged" think about it, 1 or two complain then fine say what u want, but when there's this many people saying it don't u see that they may have a point? we've seen sites been clamped down on before and hopefully someone will do something about the horrendous rigging that is goin on at full tilt. |
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MarkGreb
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Raulsta wrote: |
| we've seen sites been clamped down on before and hopefully someone will do something about the horrendous rigging that is goin on at full tilt. |
Which sites?
FYI Hit enter once in a while.  |
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Raulsta
High Card
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.pokerlistings.com/quebec-fines-online-gambling-site-21491
Heres one for example, if you took 2 minutes of your time to research what i've said you would have found a few cases like this. Sorri about not pressing enter i was ranting and writing in the proper way was not on my mind.
(note: i pressed enter, hope this is satisfactory)
Plz leave feedback on what i have said as i am looking for a debate, as their is always two sides to a story. |
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Raulsta
High Card
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Just played another $8 sat token 18 seater and guess what? Full Tilt screwed me again.
i hit tip 3's on the turn 3d Jh 4c 3h I then bet the pot and he moves all in, i stop, i think then call. he shows A pair of j's with a k kicker. then in typical full tilt style Js on the river giving us both a full house but obviously mines worthless.
this is just another from the long list of flops that full tilt gives to create action. it's disgusting and i hope Full Tilt are found out soon before many good players loose their bankroll due to the lack of realistic flops that Full Tilt is quickly becoming renowned for.
P.S I know lots of peoples answer to this will be "thats poker" but i've played 6 games today and all 6 ended in me loosing with my money in with the best hand.
Am seriously considering cashing out very soon, anyone know of a decent poker site out there?
Thanks for reading. |
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Blackray
Full House
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 169
Location: Bergen, Norway
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Raulsta wrote: |
| Also all the people who complain about people saying the site is "rigged" think about it, 1 or two complain then fine say what u want, but when there's this many people saying it don't u see that they may have a point? |
It seems to me that "All" these people are quite few. The rigged theorists are quite loud though. so I guess it seems to be more of them sometimes
Anyways, since there's never any statistical evidence over a fair sample size, or even attempts of statistics, posted by "all" these people you're referring to, they'll never really be taken serious. Add in that most of you are completely oblivious to how the RNG works (or don't believe that it works the way it says it does), and are clueless about poker vs. probability of good hands holding up (over a good sample size, not over 100 hands), we've usually got a really boring and one sided discussion going on. |
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Raulsta
High Card
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Sorry you were unclear in your post, do you agree or disagree that it is rigged or are you neutral?
Also i know the probability of hands holding up against others i'm not talking about that. what i am complaining about is the frequency of which the best hand is getting beat. This is the main point that people fail to understand when they think that i am purley talking about the best hand loosing (i have read other posts and discussed my experiences with friends).
I know 6-6 will beat A-A every so often but when u see it happen 20-30 times in 5 games where the better pocket pair gets bust u know the maths isn't right. Don't people see the runner runner straights/flushes that are happening about 10+ times in a 30 minute game and if you do see it don't you think that somethings up?
Now i read on another post someone saying "why would sites do this? they're making enough cash already". My response to that is please, don't be so naive, it's called greed it's mans Achilles heel if you will. When people get money they usually want more even if what they are getting is enough. Just take a look at what happened to Pablo Escobar lol.
If anyone has had the same experience please contribute and if you disagree please enlighten me as i do want to debate. Many Thanks. |
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fletch_smf
Royal Flush
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 779
Location: Brisneyland
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Just grabbing some of my stats from Poker Tracker after more than 10 000 hands in Cash Games on Full Tilt.
How often I win with:
AA 90%
KK 85%
QQ 83%
AKs 76%
Flushes and Straights
I have (or would have) flopped a flush draw 3.6% of the time (this includes times I folded preflop). I win 26.8% of that time, or .97% of the time overall.
I have (or would have) a flush draw on the turn 11% of the time (including when I have folded preflop or after the flop) I win 11.41% of that time or 1.38% of the time overall.
I flop (or would have) an open ended straight draw 2.2% of the time. I win 22% of that time or 0.4% of the time overall.
Can't be bothered to go throught the rest of the straight possibilities, but you get the idea.
Now again this is only after 10 000 hands, which in a perfect world would be receiving every possible starting hand about 4 times, which I haven't done but the percentages don't seemed overly skewed to me. Anyone having a large sample of HH that want to share the outrageous number of times they WIN with flushes or straight draws please post them here. |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I hear you say evidence... can you answer me this? Has FTP ever released any of the programming code to a respectable source so they can prove that it is NOT infact rigged? |
Assuming Full Tilt had a third party audit the code, which I believe is a part of the licensing process with KGC, do you trust the third party? If yes, then why don't you trust Perry Friedman the programmer, or the moderators, or any of the statistics addicts on 2+2 when we say the game isn't rigged? If you don't trust the third party, then what good does it do to have someone else look at it?
| Quote: |
| When in question, the innocent normally prove their innocence. being a programmer myself, I know only how easy it would be. |
When in a court of law, you're innocent until proven to be guilty. You're asking for negative proof, which most people will tell you is a logical impossibility.
| Quote: |
| and btw, your a pretty terrible mod to talk to members of the forum the way you do. your job is to mod, maybe you should just not post ruse things when its not even directed to you. |
Thanks. You should see the replies I type up, but click away from or delete because judgement gets the better of me.  |
I tend to wonder why you are so defensive. You answer questions you do not know with a question of your own. Now I wonder, are you an appointed spokesperson for FT? If so, you are a total joke, and I am surprised your even a mod for the forums.
And when we talk about a third party, I did mention it should be a respectable source to begin with. Did you forget to read that part? Fact is FTP has not had anyone confirm that it is legit. Other than their own word.
I would like to point out something else which you obviously find you have the right answer for. Logical Impossibilty - What on earth are you talking about. One of the most foolish responses I have ever heard when trying to defend something. What you stated does not even make sense. The negative proof you are referring to would be positive proof if it is legit. And since when do people not defend themselves when accused of something? Also, is this a court of law? If so I must be arrested alot; everything is so familiar in this room.
You are an absolute joke of a mod.
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4364
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Is the KGC not an independent trusted third party? Is not Gaming Associates, the Australia-based auditing company that certifies the RNG and shuffle algorithms not an independent trusted third party?
The point is, these things have been audited, but not by common players who probably wouldn't understand the intricacies of the code.
As far as negative proof goes, I'll ask you to prove to me 100% that sentient beings outside our planet do not exist. If you cannot do so to my satisfaction then you admit that aliens exist. Or, maybe you admit that proving a negative is an impossibility and the best you can do is find substantial, but not complete evidence against a possibility. |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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How is proving something impossible? Where do you come up with that. I can sure as hell prove if FTP is legit or a scam, but the means in which I would have to do that would be illegal.
You are a moron, you talk as if nothing should be questioned unless there is 100% proof already. And if thats the way all life on this planet thought, we would be going backwards in technology and every other aspect in life. For christ sake, you compare FTP to the Universe. My god, my tiny little brain thinks they are the same size. seriously.. you try to defend FTP with the most irrelevant things.
There is no official "audit" of FTP. If you can show me, please do.
other than that, im not quite sure you understand what a third party represents. |
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HighKey
Royal Flush
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 595
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Not to be a downer, but weren't those the same entities that verified AbsolutePoker and UltimateBet? |
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Blackray
Full House
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 169
Location: Bergen, Norway
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Raulsta wrote: |
| Sorry you were unclear in your post, do you agree or disagree that it is rigged or are you neutral? |
I don't agree that it's rigged. I've seen no one come forward with anomalities in their databases, and I've seen nothing unusual in my own database of many 100k hands. Since none of the rigged theorists are able to show any good abnormal statistics I'll continue to believe it's not rigged.
If you want a discussion on the matter, and be on the "rigged side", this is an example of things that contributes nothing to the discussion:
| Raulsta wrote: |
| I know 6-6 will beat A-A every so often but when u see it happen 20-30 times in 5 games where the better pocket pair gets bust u know the maths isn't right. Don't people see the runner runner straights/flushes that are happening about 10+ times in a 30 minute game and if you do see it don't you think that somethings up? |
It's pointless to post this type of stuff without statistical proof to back it up. Selective memory + subjective reasoning = worthless. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4364
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| trekk wrote: |
How is proving something impossible? Where do you come up with that. I can sure as hell prove if FTP is legit or a scam, but the means in which I would have to do that would be illegal.
You are a moron, you talk as if nothing should be questioned unless there is 100% proof already. And if thats the way all life on this planet thought, we would be going backwards in technology and every other aspect in life. For christ sake, you compare FTP to the Universe. My god, my tiny little brain thinks they are the same size. seriously.. you try to defend FTP with the most irrelevant things.
There is no official "audit" of FTP. If you can show me, please do.
other than that, im not quite sure you understand what a third party represents. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof
You ask that the site be proven to be not rigged. You claim that since nobody has posted anything that proves the site isn't rigged, then it must be rigged. This is your logical fallacy. This is why I'm saying you can't prove a negative.
There's worlds of evidence that suggest the sites aren't rigged. There are thousands of users here, at 2+2, Pocket5s, and other forums who have accumulated millions of hands collectively. IF the odds weren't as expected, you'd have heard about it.
The fact that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever provided a significant sample that shows a statistical anomaly significant enough to claim things are rigged leads me to the conclusion that things aren't rigged.
Also note that this isn't a single entity that has to be trusted, but instead is a distributed group of individuals. This means that it is highly unlikely that the sites are rigged in their favor only, or that they were paid off to falsify data to hide the rigging.
Bottom line is, this argument gets played out over and over, and never do the "rigged" theorists put up anything other than "I think", "I feel", "It seems", or other empty conjecture. |
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mgodd
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1206
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| HighKey wrote: |
| Not to be a downer, but weren't those the same entities that verified AbsolutePoker and UltimateBet? |
I believe so, but cheating and non-random shuffling are two completely different issues. I don't see how any 3rd party could prevent super user accounts from being used, and neither of those sites have proven to be rigged in any other aspect. |
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