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Guest

I noticed in his book, which I've learned a lot from, that he likes to play 8-6 suited, or suited connectors. He also says that he doesn't vary his bet with the starting hands but rather he varies them based on position.

Question is, when is a good time to play these types of suited connectors or suited gap cards? His starting hand charts dont' truly reflect some of the advice given in the book where he gives examples of how he raises limpers with mid to low suited connectors.

Suggestions?

PJStyles

lucky_strike_86 · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:42 am Post subject:

It would be better to play these types of marginal hands in late position. Since you can see what everyone else is doing you can play hands that you wouldn't normally play in early or middle position, like suited or gap suited connectors

Guest · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:04 am Post subject:

But would you raise with those hands in late position? The reason I ask is that if all you do is play premium hands from early position, then won't people start to clue in to the fact that you're always playing those types of hands from early position?

The thing I like most about Phil Gordon's book is he tries to keep people guessing as to what hands he's playing. Unfortunately, with the exception of making the comment that he plays his low to mid suited connectors in late position, he makes no reference as to whether he ever plays these hands from early position and in addition, when he just smooth calls or raises in late position with these hands.

PJStyles

Bronco232 · Full House Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 197

As far as position, I really don't like to play many hands at all in early position, so MAYBE once in a while I'll open the pre flop betting with a hand like this, but usually only if I've been at the same table with the same players for a while and they've seen me only raise with premium hands in early position. As mentioned above by another poster, I as well love these hands in late position. In the game I play (.05/.10, occasionally .10/.25), I often find players will limp in early position with nearly any hand just to see a flop (with even as poor of holdings as J 3 off, etc.). If I find myself on the cutoff or button and look down at 6s7s (see the sig below!) and there are two early limpers who I've identified as not very good players, I'll go ahead and raise about 4.5 x BB occasionally with these suited connectors. It is pretty disguised because it's probably the same raise I'd make with premium hand like AK, etc. I often find that even when I miss the flop I'll take down the pot with my continuation bet because the early limpers playing K10 or Q9 are scared by an A on the flop or they miss it altogether. It's also something I can get rid of pretty easily if its clear I'm beat.

It probably has a lot to do with the level I play at, but I like to punish early position limpers (I find very few try to trap with monsters by smooth calling early, not enough know this play at .05/.10). And again, sometimes I'll win a huge pot when the flop comes K67 and my opponent played K10 in first position. Those, combined with taking pots from my continuation bets make this a profitable play despite having to dump it sometimes when the situation calls.

Guest · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:28 am Post subject:

Great post... I will definitely take that into consideration going forward. I think I've been playing too tight in general to the point where when I do go in, I either get nobody in the pot or the guys who do call me are calling me with the types of hands you just mentioned which aren't denominated by any stretch.... Good advice!

Follow-up question, what if you're at a short handed table (6-7), with the 1st person folding and 2nd position calling. Do you still raise at that point or do you mainly raise with 87s type of hands when there are a FEW limpers from early position and you're in late position?

In addition, what if you're first to act from the 3rd position in the same situation above (6-7 man table)... what would you do then? Just flat call or raise it up? I see that Phil Gordon loves to raise about 75% of the time pre-flop.... would this constitute a raise since you're first to act?

Bronco232 · Full House Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 197

GxHxOxSxT · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

If you feel that the cards are worth playing, then they are worth playing for a raise. When you ease up on your betting or limp in because you are only playing 6,7s your opponents are going to pick up on that and beat the tar out of you. Play 67, 55, J9 just as hard as you would AA, KK or AK. Keep them guessing as to what you have.

Also, I agree with Bronco that you should never let limpers just lie there unpunished because when you do they are going to come back and bite you for a big portion of your chips. It will limit players and when no one hits the flop your continuation bets "represents" pocket pairs rather than 8,6s.

Ghost

Guest · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject:

Great feedback guys.... I will have to implement this as part of my game... I find too many poker books out there are too black/white and what I like about Phil Gordon's books is that he makes you look at things in a different way....

One thing I would recommend he do for his next book (if he does another one) is to have a big chunk of it dedicated to problem hands where he talks you through exercises and shows you what he would have done - similar to Dan Harrington's books.

My last question for the day Smile

is this... It seems that most people will only play premium hands from early positions. Do you feel that makes you too predictable? Phil mentions that when in early position, he almost always raises or folds. However, in order to raise from early position, you would generally need a good hand. How do you guys play your early positions more or less?

PJStyles

Bronco232 · Full House Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 197

Maybe its a weakness in my own game, maybe its not, but I don't think its worth raising with junk hands UTG just to throw your opponents off. If your opponents believe you always have a monster when raising early, then it should allow you to win smaller pots, which is certainly worse than losing them. The fact is, even if you only play real tight hands ranging from 10/10 to AA, AK suited/unsuited, AQ unsuited/suited, KQ suited and AJ suited UTG there is still a wide range of hands for your opponents to put you on. I think playing in position provides opportunities for a little more imagination, but getting too fancy UTG or early can prove costly in my opinion.

Guest · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:

Point well taken... Do you guys normally have a guideline you use for which hands you'll play in early positions? I realize a lot depends on the type of players you're playing against etc etc... but do you use a rule of thumb?

I see the hand guide in Phil's book at the back but I'm having a hard time really understanding his guide because some numbers are outlined, others are highlighted etc etc... he doesn't explain what each means...

PJStyles

Shobs · High Card Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

From early position I usually keep away from low pocket pairs, shabby hands like Q10 o/s, and low aces up to about A7, but about 25% of the time I pick up one of these hands I will open the pot with a raise. It's not profitable to play those hands every time but it's weak poker to throw them away every time also. I will play any high/middle pocket pair down to about sixes, most middle suited connectors(109s, J10s, and also the fun hand to play J9s), AKos-A9s, KQ-K10, and QJs. I raise with any hand I come into the pot with from early position. This is at a full table of course. When shorthanded at 6 players or less I add limping to my repertoire, limping about 25% of the time I enter the pot with any hand from 64s to AA. The other 75% of the time I enter the pot I raise about 3xBB, with a smaller range of hands. I'm pretty aggressive but not 64s aggressive Wink

TTG2k · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject:

Hey Bronco,

Follow-up question.... You mentioned that you have one early limper and he's the only one in the pot when it gets to you in late position, you're more likely to CALL as opposed to raising. Do you ever fear that by doing so the blinds behind you will raise it up?

Also, is it a good rule of thumb to say that with the suited connector type of hands that Phil Gordon speaks of in his book ie: 8-7s, 9-7s etc that you're a CALLER when there are more than 2 limpers in front of you and you're a RAISER when there's only 1? And what do you do from the BLINDS position in this situation given that you'll be out of position the rest of the way?

Thanks for the feedback...

PJStyles

David Petina · Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:09 am Post subject:

PJ,

Actually, a buddy at work has Phil Gordon's book and mentioned the hand chart was hard to read. I told him about the website,

http://lgb.philgordonpoker.com

which has the chart color coded and he said that was much easier to understand. Hope it helps.

Also, I in answer to some of your earlier posts, one way to think about hands like suited connectors is that playing them for the same raise you play big hands is itself a form of mixing it up. While many of the players here look at betting patterns to get a better read on players, a whole lot of people out there think only about the 2 cards in front of them. If they pay attention to you at all, they often will notice only the simplest of things like "oh, he only plays good cards." Also, many people out there pay no attention whatsoever to position. So, playing lower suited connectors, even from late position, will mess up this modest "read" on you.

Dave

princebalf · Flush Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 129

i was playing an sng last night and, there was this one person just cussing and swearing at peoples plays. and it got me really thinking as bit, as i do this alot too. a bit off topic but a bit on.

someone in late position limped in with qq, letting the this person the sb to call, well of course the sb hit his 10 but of course lost alot of chips, about 80% of it. now he was swearing and **** to no end about limping with hands like qq, a-k and how its totally wrong to limp. and his reason was -
becasue he couldnt put that person on qq since no raise.

so with this guys reasoning, he thinks every raise is a "monster", 100-aa, a-k , a-q. so of course he folds to them.

so this is where the suited gaps, connectors plays..
if people think raises are for premium hands, and u raise a few times with 8-6, 4-5, most people think u have a premium hand. hence taking small pots or if u hit, u can take down huge pots.

again it all depends on the table, but depending on the table i will limp with a-k, kk, raise it up with 9-10, 6-7, because these hands will win huge pots played right. and never forget if u do raise with the suited gaps and even miss play the continuation bets, 4/5 times your oppenent missed or thinks that ace that flopped has hit your hand, winning u the pot.

TTG2k · Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:56 am Post subject:

Great advice.... thanks!! I'm definitely going to start mixing up my play, especially in late positions with some raises and perhaps even in middle position at short-handed tables with low suited connectors....

PJStyles

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