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feldashv · High Card Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 2

I've had my share of bad beats that I endure privately, but this one stings a lot and I want to hear your thoughts. The winner of this hand went on to place 12th and get 10 times his buy-in - a nice return after many hours of work... I wish that were me...

It was in the $19K guaranteed this past Sunday. Around 1000 ppl entered, at this point it's down to 80 (so, we were all in-the-money). Average stack is around $18,000, blinds are around 500/1000 with 200 or so ante. I am in 7th position at the table, with $17,000, and get dealt QQ. Before me, 4th position (who has $17,000 also) raises to $3,000. It's folded to me, and I re-raise to $5,200. Everyone folds but the 4th, and he calls me. Flop - 8c 4s 6c. 4th bets $4,000. I think for a bit, but it's time to make the stand, so I re-raise all-in (about $12,000 total, or an $8000 raise). 4th has the same size stack as me, so his call would take his last $8,000 and put him all in as well. 4th calls.... and shows 9s 10s. Not clubs - spades. Turn - Kc. 4 outs left... River - 7d.

I don't know what odds he had at the flop, but it can't be more than 20%, right? But more importantly... what was he thinking calling my all-in??? I guess he only needs to have about a 30% chance to win in order to call the final $8,000, but I can't believe he was THAT good and fast in figuring odds (it was an immediate call). Besides, $8,000 was still a playable stack at this stage (lowest 10 players had less than $3,000 each). I almost feel like he knew the 7 was coming. Give me some comforting words, please.

Strasse · Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject:

You should have raised all in preflop. Your raise was way too small, and he almost had to call it. If you had raised all in preflop, you could have taken the pot without having to showdown.

goomlah · Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: I'll make this simple

Your min raise pre-flop just sucked. Get the money all-in and pray he calls. You don't have enough chips left to raise a little bit, get called, and get sucked out. If he calls you with T9 of spades you'll take your chances as a 4 to 1 favorite. On the flop, you had to call all in, with half the chips in the pot, he has to call with almost anything, including a lowly T9. You were also a 4-1 favorite after the flop as well so you got unlucky, but please, no min-raises with your stack pre-flop.

chillbot · Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:

It would help to know how many people were at your table at the time, but I would guess that the pot was about $13,000 after the flop. He bet $4,000 and you raised to $12,000 so he would have to put in $8,000 more to win $29,000... or about 3.5:1. Is that math right?

You didn't say if you had the Q of clubs or not... if you did you were about 80% to win after the flop and 93% to win after the turn. If you didn't you were still about 91% to win after the turn. So no, to answer your question he was not quite getting pot odds (4:1). Though he may have put you on a weak hand like A8, in which case you would only be 60% to win after the flop. Not likely, the way you played it, but it sounds like he had already made up his mind to go all the way with a crappy hand.

You could have raised more preflop, but if you want comforting words, I think the guy was an idiot.

Matt

feldashv · High Card Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 2

Thanks for the replies. To asnwer some questions - there were 8 people at the table and neither of my queens was a club.

I hear you all on the pre-flop all-in - I guess I was too conservative (or too greedy). I think Matt's explanation was very helpful too - if he thought he was only a 3:2 dog, at that point he may as well call. I don't agree with goomlah's "On the flop, you had to call all in, with half the chips in the pot, he has to call with almost anything, including a lowly T9" - although I am happy people play and think like that. You never "have to" call with crappy hands, especially after they don't hit the flop... Plus remember, after the flop he bet his T9 first (which I assume was a legitimate attempt to steal), and then I went all-in. If the bet was a bluff, he should have been ready to give it up once he was caught. If it wasn't a bluff... well, actually, I don't know how he could have thought a T9 was the best hand. Anyway, I just don't get a bet, and then a call of an all-in, despite the pot-odds discussions.

FatStacks06 · Royal Flush Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 736

Well, he probably put you on a hand like AK, so he thought his 10-9 was live when he called your all-in. SO in his mind he had 10 outs (3 10's, 3 9's, and 4 7's) and with all the money he had invested (about half his stack) that he might as well call. He probably was real mad when you flipped over your PP and knew he had 4 outs. He just got lucky. He made a bad read and a bad play. That's my thought though.

Piney1000 · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:14 am Post subject:

All in on preflop. When your down less the 20 BB make a stand and QQ is a hand to stand on. I agree with Strasse

AllInDrawinDead · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject:

Don't ever ever ever make a minimum raise preflop with players already in! Yea ok you want to build a pot and you want to get paid off but what about protecting your hand? Why let someone who limped get a good price to make two pair or trips. Remember that a high pocket pair is still only ONE pair. It is not worth slowplaying. Especially Queens which are vulnerable to overcards.

matt2411 · Royal Flush Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 559

not going to repeat what was said before, but you have encountered a very rare species of donkey known as the 'ultimate calling station donkey'

this species of donkey loves to call with any 2 cards, even if he/she knows they are beat. this type of donkey places complete faith in the cards and his ability to go runner runner or catch miracle cards. Do not confuse this donkey with the 'show me donkey.' which will call just to 'keep you honest' with ace high.

this type of donkey does not need cards nor a brain to call, this donkey loves the rush of playing 72, because its always skill that wins it for him.

please only use catch and release with this species of donkey we need these in the population to have a balanced ecosystem, extinction would be devastating.

goomlah · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: yes he does have to call

After putting in half his stack before your all-in reraise, he's pretty much committed to the pot. He probably had absolutely no idea as to what you had and was praying to god he didn't have an overpair. The next hand he plays is all-in or fold (if he folds) with his remaining 8000 or so, and he'll probably end up pushing a marginal hand anyway and get called by a bigger hand.

Besides, that min raise pre-flop didn't give him any information. You could have had 66, AA, AK, etc. maybe even 7-2: who cares. As soon he calls and gets ANYTHING on the flop he's going all-in no matter he thinks his odds are. That simple.

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