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junkbutton

1/2 NL Live...

Is this a bad play? Full table, very loose. Probably averaging 5 or 6 people to the flop. Almost always limping with very few preflop raises. I'm in the SB. There are two limpers in early position. One guy (Player A) raises it to $7 in middle position. There are 3 callers behind him. It gets to me and I look down at Q10 off suit. I want to say here that I hate when people get married to some crap hand (i.e. "I always play 4 6 of spades!"), but I must admit that Q10 has a special place in my heart (as I said recently on a thread here). So my first question is, if you're playing this hand, do you call here?

My second question... Same hand... I called, and there was one more caller after me (roughly $42 in pot). Flop comes down 10 10 9, with 2 clubs. I check, and it gets checked around to a guy in middle position (sitting to the left of Player A). He (Player B) bets $15. Two guys behind him call (pot roughly $87). I go all in for total $55 ($15 call & $40 raise). It gets folded around to the guy sitting to the left Player B (both Players B & A have folded). (Here comes the question!) If you're sitting there (as Player C) with pocket aces, and you've got me who just went all in with that board, who has been sitting quietly for about an hour, showing absolutely no aggression, calling a few big blinds, folding to raises, hadn't played a pot, would you call?

I hope this makes sense.

Basically, I'm trying to justify to myself that this was not a bad preflop call on my part, knowing how loose this table was, knowing it was only costing me $6 more to see a flop, with my favorite hand for crying out loud! (which, I'll admit is a horrible reason to call a raise) I also want to know if people could get away from pocket aces in that situation (as I think this guy should have been able to do here).

And most of all, I'd like to know if you did call with your aces, and you didn't improve your hand, would you spend the next 20 minutes berating me like this **** did last night?

Any other comments are welcome.

stevn · Message Board Junkie Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1117

well go ask robert varkonyi about playing that queen ten

Bronco232 · Full House Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 197

I personally wouldn't have called pre flop, but my reason was something you did not touch on in your post. It's all about Position!! In the SB you were going to have to act first, so I would've mucked. With a loose table a call could possibly be justified from the button, but you know more about the table than I. I would have folded regarless of position, but that's just me.

You hit a great flop and got paid, but what happens if the flop comes Q 9 3 rainbow or 10 7 2 and you're first to bet? Are you going to bet? And what are you going to when the AA raises you?

Hindsight is 20/20, and its nice it worked out for you that time, but in the longrun that probably isn't a profitable call. It didn't appear you had much in chips (if your all in was $55 post flop it looks like you put 10% of your stack in pre flop out of position with Q high).

Nice hand though, glad it worked out for you and sorry you had to be berated by that "pro" with AA.

jessejames71 · Full House Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 229

OKay assumng a pass on the QT thing.

I would have simply told they guy "I check raised All-in, with board pair 10s vs 4 other players what the Hell did you think I had!"

ev1lg3n1us · Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject:

Q-10 offsuit is a HORRIBLE hand to play in a mult way pot out of position. I would fold that hand immediately for a raise in a cash game.

Since you DID decide to play it. If he calls your check raise all in then its a matter of the pot odds that he was layed. you said that it was a $7 5-6 ways pre flop thats $35-40. So when he bets $15 and gets 2 callers thats another $45 making the pot about $80. Then you check raise all in for $55 more which makes the pot $135, he needs to call $40 to win about $175. (more than 4 to 1 price). I mean I WOULD FOLD, even though the odds are pretty good to call, but I mean you reall can't beat anything here. Unless he puts you on like an open end straight draw with over cards or something. He cant beat any 10 so if he calls and then complains about it hes wrong.

I WOULD fold if i was him, BUT if I did call and lost I wouldnt be upset. He has no reason to be angry with you. Especially since you said its been a very loose table, if he wanted to protect his hand he should raised it more pre flop. I woulda made it about $15-20 to go pre flop with A-A.

You won the hand so dont worry about it. But in the long run DONT play Q-10 offsuit out of position for a raise in a cash game.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

I would definitely lay it down pre-flop in this game. The fact that it's loose-passive actually makes the call worse, since it's very likely that someone that's raising pre-flop has a really big hand. In a loose-agressive game there's a slight chance I'd call if the stacks were deep enough, knowing that I could get paid off if i hit big and fold or play really carefully if i only hit top pair. If you're confident enoug that your opponents can't lay down an overpair though, I can't say that your call is that bad.

When it comes to the guy with the aces there's not much to say. You check-raised that flop and he still couldn't let his hand go.

edit: I re-read this post and realized how stupid my statement about a loose-passive game not being the right conditions was. You want him to have a big hand of course, how else are you going to get paid when you finally hit?

FatStacks06 · Royal Flush Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 736

I thought you played it great. He was probably not a pro, most likely an amateur that hates to get his AA beaten. The check-raise all-in gave your hand away and any pro would have folded here. He made a bad play and a weak raise at a loose table. I had a guy in the $19000 guarentee last night dog me all night for calling a 2.5 BB pre-flop raise with A3s. A hand that if you hit the flop big will pay you off, if not you can just let it go. Its not a bad attitude to have at a table like this. The flop was AAQ he checked, I bet half the pot. He called. Turn was a blank, he checks again I bet 3/4 pot. He calls. River was a 3. He bets the pot, I raise him all-in he calls and flips over KK. Guys just get mad that their big hands get beaten by weaker hands. If they're going to hold their hand all the way to the end then it works in your favor. He made the donkey play, not you.

comin4you · Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: Re:

junkbutton · Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:01 am Post subject:

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I really appreciate them. I would like to reiterate that I realize how foolish it was to play Q10 in that situation, but in hindsight I'm not upset that I did.

Thanks again for the feedback.

princebalf · Flush Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 129

i actually dont think its foolish to play q-10os at all. i think you have to realize is that every game has a certain betting structure. and this is what i mean..

inmy city the 1/2 nl game is going to be very different than yours. a $7 raise even though it is 3.3x the bb riase, in my game thats a cheap raise and it shows weakness. the norm here is at least $10. its very common to raise to $10 and get 5 callers with weak drawing hands. this is why its even more common to preflop raise $15-20 and even still get 4 callers.

at the casino i play at if i have q-10, k-10. q-j, and mid-low pairs, and its raised to $7, it doesnt matter what position im in im playing, all becasue i know a $7 raise from anyone in my city 98.5% of the time it means a weak hand. and if i hit, im going to make alot of money.

Phd J · Guest

I agree with the prince. The game revolves around the betting. The cards are the cards.

mdroz247 · Full House Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 152

I would have called their because if you hit a monster flop, like you did there is money to be won. There was already a decent amount of money in before you called. True you were out of position, but i still like the call.

As you described it, the player with AA was the third one to call? If i have AA and 2-3 people have already called i would have reraised about around 25 in that situation. This would have prevented you from calling with a Q10. Him just smooth calling in that situation gave people opportunites to hit a big flop.

Then after the flop when you checked raised him, he should have known he was beat. People just cant let go of big PPs.

_Xceptional · Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject:

You played this hand horribly, after the flop.

#1, you smooth called out of the SB with Q-10, not a bad call, I would have done the same thing, you're getting mucho pot odds with a draw heavy hand. Don't listen to all the Tighty McTight pants out there who say fold, they're too caught up in playing perfect tight/aggressive poker, mixing up your game is key, there's nothing wrong with playing loose in a cash game, it's the most profitable style IMHO.

#2, Why in Gods name would you check a board showing 10 - 9 - 10 with 2 clubs? Bad Bad Bad, this makes me sick. Are you begging for a suckout? Looking for every possible reason to fold trips on the turn? You don't like betting? I would have immeadiately pushed all in here for my remaining $55, there's no reason to bet at the pot, and certainly checking is super-donk. You have to push here, there's 2 draws out there and you obviously have the best hand, you need to get all your chips in the middle ASAP.

I really don't understand how some of you guys can think he played this hand well after the flop. Checking, are you serious, that's by far the worst play he could have made. Eithere bet, or push, you can't check, pure and simple.

Tony

PS- I don't mean to be a dick, but I'm really disatisfied with the lack of good advice around here.

KarlDykhuis · Flush Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Minnesota

I have to agree with the above comment. Don't give anyone the opportunity to suck out that flush or straight, there's nothing wrong with taking it down right there even though Mr AA would probably have called it anyway.

It all worked out for you though, as for him getting upset...he's more upset at himself than anything for not re-raising player "A". You must protect Aces, a raise to at least $21 was required there in order to get marginal hands to lay down.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

When will people stop slowplaying? It's a BAD IDEA!!!! Unless you flop the nut flush or better - and I mean NUT flush, not a baby flush - you shouldn't be slowplaying. That board was scary as hell - gotta agree with X here.

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