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Online Poker Forum - What does it take to get good hourly rate in a MTT?
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live4freerolls
Message Board Junkie


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2499
Location: Grindin

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PsychoDonk wrote:
live4freerolls wrote:
PsychoDonk wrote:
live4freerolls wrote:
PsychoDonk wrote:
live4freerolls wrote:
You
do
not
understand
what
variance
is
.


This
is
coming
from
a
play
money
player.


el
oh
el

Sorry OP that this guy's ignorance has gotten the thread off track. If you're going to play mtts as your main game you're going to have vary sick swings ( VARIANCE !). You won't be able to establish what your hourly rate will be until you have gathered a very large sample size of games. Make sure you have a minimum of 100 buyins for the level of mtts you'll be playing or else theres a much greater chance you'll go busto. If you want to make playing mtts worth your time you have to multitable and get in sick volume.


You clearly don't understand the difference between long term and short term varience.


Mtts have the worst short term variance.
Mtts also have the worst longterm variance.


Over the course of 100 tournaments, a winning MTT player will have more profit than a winning STT player at the same level.


Not consistently.
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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 3085
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PsychoDonk wrote:

They have the best ROI, and the higher the ROI, the less varience. In a cash game you risk your buy in for 200% ROI. In a STT, you risk your buy in for 450% ROI. In an MTT, you risk your buy in for 150,000% ROI. Over the course of 100 MTTs, STTs, and cash sessions, if you are a good player, you will have made more in the MTT games.


I do not agree. The definition of "long term" varies between MTTs, SnGs, and cash games, because of the risk/reward factor that goes along with them. And games do not have the best ROI, players do. The first part of your statement makes absolutely no sense. A players ROI itself will not indicate the variance they experienced to get that ROI.
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PsychoDonk
High Card


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathman1115 wrote:
PsychoDonk wrote:

They have the best ROI, and the higher the ROI, the less varience. In a cash game you risk your buy in for 200% ROI. In a STT, you risk your buy in for 450% ROI. In an MTT, you risk your buy in for 150,000% ROI. Over the course of 100 MTTs, STTs, and cash sessions, if you are a good player, you will have made more in the MTT games.


I do not agree. The definition of "long term" varies between MTTs, SnGs, and cash games, because of the risk/reward factor that goes along with them. And games do not have the best ROI, players do. The first part of your statement makes absolutely no sense. A players ROI itself will not indicate the variance they experienced to get that ROI.


Tourneys and players have ROI. Personal ROI depends on the amount you make per amount gambled. Tourney ROI is based on the size of the buy in to payout ratio. So it does make sense, just different type of ROI than you're thinking.
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live4freerolls
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2499
Location: Grindin

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PsychoDonk wrote:
mathman1115 wrote:
PsychoDonk wrote:

They have the best ROI, and the higher the ROI, the less varience. In a cash game you risk your buy in for 200% ROI. In a STT, you risk your buy in for 450% ROI. In an MTT, you risk your buy in for 150,000% ROI. Over the course of 100 MTTs, STTs, and cash sessions, if you are a good player, you will have made more in the MTT games.


I do not agree. The definition of "long term" varies between MTTs, SnGs, and cash games, because of the risk/reward factor that goes along with them. And games do not have the best ROI, players do. The first part of your statement makes absolutely no sense. A players ROI itself will not indicate the variance they experienced to get that ROI.


Tourneys and players have ROI. Personal ROI depends on the amount you make per amount gambled. Tourney ROI is based on the size of the buy in to payout ratio. So it does make sense, just different type of ROI than you're thinking.


Tourney ROI does not exist sir. Unless a tournament makes a return on its investment Laughing ?! Each player does have a different potential ROI in each tournament depending on its prizepool though if that is what you're trying to say ?
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PsychoDonk
High Card


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

live4freerolls wrote:
PsychoDonk wrote:
mathman1115 wrote:
PsychoDonk wrote:

They have the best ROI, and the higher the ROI, the less varience. In a cash game you risk your buy in for 200% ROI. In a STT, you risk your buy in for 450% ROI. In an MTT, you risk your buy in for 150,000% ROI. Over the course of 100 MTTs, STTs, and cash sessions, if you are a good player, you will have made more in the MTT games.


I do not agree. The definition of "long term" varies between MTTs, SnGs, and cash games, because of the risk/reward factor that goes along with them. And games do not have the best ROI, players do. The first part of your statement makes absolutely no sense. A players ROI itself will not indicate the variance they experienced to get that ROI.


Tourneys and players have ROI. Personal ROI depends on the amount you make per amount gambled. Tourney ROI is based on the size of the buy in to payout ratio. So it does make sense, just different type of ROI than you're thinking.


Tourney ROI does not exist sir. Unless a tournament makes a return on its investment Laughing ?! Each player does have a different potential ROI in each tournament depending on its prizepool though if that is what you're trying to say ?


Yes, perhaps a better term would be MROI or PROI. Maximum or possible return on investment. MTTs have proportionately higher PROI than STTs and that makes up in the long run for the greater variance.
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chipengineer2
High Card


Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have plenty of time, dont need the money, and your averaging in the top 30% or so then MTTS may be worth sticking out for the long haul. Thing is its a grind, mental grind and you have to be prepared for that. You may not cash for days and not hit a final table for weeks and you have to be prepared for that also. You may also hit the minor payouts alot and feel youve wasted your time when you dont even double your investment after 3 hours of work, another thing to be prepared for.

Mtts are like playing to hit the home run and if you can stick it out long enough and collect enough cashes to keep going sooner or later if your any kind of player youll hit that homerun and everything will seem worth it but mtts are not a way to make steady every day income if thats your idea at least IMO.

Id say if your looking to use poker for daily income then play sit and gos. Much less of a time investment. When you have a good day and are feeling good about things take some profit and enter a mtt when you know you have the time to play it right.


gl
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LostOstrich
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Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 4184
Location: In your bed, with your wife. Smoking your cigarettes, drinking your brandy.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imurvariance is correct.

The variance in MTTs is considerably higher than in SNGs and rings. That applies both short term, and long term.

However, PsychoDonk is on the right track, imo. There is more potential for a winning player to make a higher ROI in MTTs in the long term, than in either of the other 2 variants. The 100-game example is ludicrously small though.

To answer the OP, you need to view MTTs as a long term proposition, and play as many as you can. If you apply a 100-buyin BRM system, review your correct level every 100 games. Taking occasional shots is fine imo (disclaimer: I play outside of my correct limits at least 20% of the time, but that's just me), but be aware that playing higher stakes simply makes the effect of variance even more pronounced.

Of course it's massively frustrating to be donked out after 3 hours time after time, and the effect of variance is magnified by the fact that losing key hands at crucial stages can cancel out dozens of succesful plays. This is exactly why you need a huge sample before you can claim to be a winning player, and also before you need to accept that you're not.

But the simple fact is, the potential ROI is considerably higher in MTTs. MTTs therefore have better long term profit potential for players who have a good edge over the field, but with this potential comes the caveat that massive, pronounced downswings are not only possible, they're pretty much guaranteed.
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cubbies760
Drawing Dead


Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 7547
Location: Suburban Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LostOstrich wrote:
imurvariance is correct.


Do you really think that he knows who imurvariance is? Laughing
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LostOstrich
Forum Ostrich


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 4184
Location: In your bed, with your wife. Smoking your cigarettes, drinking your brandy.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubbies760 wrote:
LostOstrich wrote:
imurvariance is correct.


Do you really think that he knows who imurvariance is? Laughing


Embarassed
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