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dcdoorknob
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: Mississippi
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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The other flop was really nothing like this one, and I just don't see any similarities to the two situations at all. I like that flop check (A9 hand) alot better than this one. A bet here is to protect what rates to be the best hand imo (information is also useful but secondary), and I don't like passing on it. Before you had a hand that could afford to give a free card most of the time, here you obviously don't.
On the turn, everyone checked twice, that seems like a big enough invitation to bet to me, enough that a lone spade is making a mistake by calling. If someone shows any strength you have to seriously reassess obviously, but there is no reason to assume anyone has anything better and checking it down and hoping your one pair holds up 4 handed to the river doesn't seem like a great idea to me. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| dcdoorknob wrote: |
| The other flop was really nothing like this one, and I just don't see any similarities to the two situations at all. |
I think they both fall into the category of WA/WB. This case is slightly different, because there is a third possibility: that I get called by a draw. But I just don't think that betting into 3 other people -- one of whom raised UTG, the other two of whom called that raise -- with only mid pair on a flop that has an A is ultimately profitable.
| Quote: |
| A bet here is to protect what rates to be the best hand imo (information is also useful but secondary) |
I don't see how we can be so sure we have the best hand.
| Quote: |
| Before you had a hand that could afford to give a free card most of the time, here you obviously don't. |
Yes, but I don't mind folding it if I do give a free card and it seems to help someone (i.e. complete a flush draw). |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I guess it's time to continue the hand.
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HAND #29
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 30/60 Blinds, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Wood16 (CO): 919
Hero (BTN): 3,138
landocaly (SB): 1,580
fladimiir (BB): 2,173
Tyler AAAA (UTG): 1,375
Mcclaud222 (UTG+1): 790
Chouby75 (MP): 3,525
Pre-Flop: (90) A 8 dealt to Hero (BTN)
Tyler AAAA raises to 150, 6 folds
Results: 150 Pot
Tyler AAAA mucked and WON 150 (+90 NET)
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HAND #30
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 30/60 Blinds, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Wood16 (MP): 919
Hero (CO): 3,138
landocaly (BTN): 1,550
fladimiir (SB): 2,113
Tyler AAAA (BB): 1,465
Mcclaud222 (UTG): 790
Chouby75 (UTG+1): 3,525
Pre-Flop: (90) K Q dealt to Hero (CO)
Mcclaud222 raises to 180, 2 folds, Hero calls 180, landocaly folds, fladimiir calls 150, Tyler AAAA calls 120
Flop: (720) A 7 Q (4 Players)
fladimiir checks, Tyler AAAA checks, Mcclaud222 checks, Hero checks
Turn: (720) 4 (4 Players)
fladimiir checks, Tyler AAAA checks, Mcclaud222 checks, Hero checks
River: (720) A (4 Players)
fladimiir checks, Tyler AAAA checks, Mcclaud222 checks, Hero ???
Not sure if my turn check was good or not, but now it's checked to me again. |
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quantumsuicide
Two Pair
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I would bet 300 post flop and i think maybe UTG has TT or JJ, and BB or SB may have a weak A which isn't weak anymore, though i would bet a weak A if checked to me in the flop... so maybe they have a draw after the turn that didn't hit in the river. OR SOMEONE HAS A MONSTER.
When everybody seems scared of something, more often than not, i get a big reraise.
But i think it's an easy spot. i ultra check. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ultra check it is.
I don't know if this was the best line here. I can see betting the flop or turn. I just didn't want to invest more into the hand against this many people.
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HAND #30
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 30/60 Blinds, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Wood16 (MP): 919
Hero (CO): 3,138
landocaly (BTN): 1,550
fladimiir (SB): 2,113
Tyler AAAA (BB): 1,465
Mcclaud222 (UTG): 790
Chouby75 (UTG+1): 3,525
Pre-Flop: (90) K Q dealt to Hero (CO)
Mcclaud222 raises to 180, 2 folds, Hero calls 180, landocaly folds, fladimiir calls 150, Tyler AAAA calls 120
Flop: (720) A 7 Q (4 Players)
fladimiir checks, Tyler AAAA checks, Mcclaud222 checks, Hero checks
Turn: (720) 4 (4 Players)
fladimiir checks, Tyler AAAA checks, Mcclaud222 checks, Hero checks
River: (720) A (4 Players)
fladimiir checks, Tyler AAAA checks, Mcclaud222 checks, Hero checks
Results: 720 Pot
Hero showed K Q (two pair, Aces and Queens) and WON 720 (+540 NET)
fladimiir mucked K T (a pair of Aces) and LOST (-180 NET)
Tyler AAAA mucked 6 5 (a pair of Aces) and LOST (-180 NET)
Mcclaud222 showed J J (two pair, Aces and Jacks) and LOST (-180 NET)
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HAND #31
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 30/60 Blinds, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Wood16 (UTG+1): 919
Hero (MP): 3,678
landocaly (CO): 1,550
fladimiir (BTN): 1,933
Tyler AAAA (SB): 1,285
Mcclaud222 (BB): 610
Chouby75 (UTG): 3,525
Pre-Flop: (90) 6 Q dealt to Hero (MP)
Chouby75 calls 60, 2 folds, landocaly raises to 240, fladimiir folds, Tyler AAAA calls 210, Mcclaud222 folds, Chouby75 raises to 3,525 and is All-In, landocaly calls 1,310 and is All-In, Tyler AAAA folds
Flop: (3,400) 5 Q J (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Turn: (3,400) T (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
River: (3,400) K (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Results: 3,400 Pot
landocaly showed T T (three of a kind, Tens) and LOST (-1,550 NET)
Chouby75 showed 9 9 (a straight, King high) and WON 3,400 (+1,850 NET)
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HAND #32
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 30/60 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (CO): 1,200
OkanT (BTN): 3,360
skull0606 (SB): 2,825
Mad Communist (BB): 805
Chris Klecz (UTG): 1,310
miss williams (UTG+1): 2,375
Skoblar 13 (MP1): 1,625
Hero (MP2): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (90) 6 4 dealt to Hero (MP2)
7 folds
Results: 60 Pot
Mad Communist mucked and WON 60 (+30 NET)
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HAND #33
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 30/60 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (MP1): 1,200
OkanT (MP2): 3,360
Mcclaud222 (CO): 550
skull0606 (BTN): 2,795
Mad Communist (SB): 835
Chris Klecz (BB): 1,310
miss williams (UTG): 2,375
Skoblar 13 (UTG+1): 1,625
Hero (UTG+2): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (90) 5 2 dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
miss williams calls 60, Skoblar 13 calls 60, 2 folds, OkanT calls 60, Mcclaud222 folds, skull0606 calls 60, Mad Communist raises to 835 and is All-In, 4 folds, skull0606 calls 775
Flop: (1,910) T 6 3 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Turn: (1,910) 3 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
River: (1,910) 6 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Results: 1,910 Pot
skull0606 showed A Q (a flush, Ace high) and WON 1,910 (+1,075 NET)
Mad Communist showed A 9 (two pair, Sixes and Threes) and LOST (-835 NET)
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HAND #34
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (MP1): 1,200
OkanT (MP2): 3,300
Mcclaud222 (CO): 550
skull0606 (BTN): 3,870
Chris Klecz (SB): 1,250
miss williams (BB): 2,315
Skoblar 13 (UTG): 1,565
Hero (UTG+1): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (120) 5 8 dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
4 folds, Mcclaud222 raises to 240, 3 folds
Results: 200 Pot
Mcclaud222 mucked and WON 200 (+120 NET)
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HAND #35
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (UTG+1): 1,200
OkanT (MP1): 3,300
Mcclaud222 (MP2): 670
skull0606 (CO): 3,870
Chris Klecz (BTN): 1,210
miss williams (SB): 2,235
Skoblar 13 (BB): 1,565
Hero (UTG): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (120) Q 5 dealt to Hero (UTG)
2 folds, OkanT calls 80, Mcclaud222 raises to 240, 4 folds, OkanT raises to 840, Mcclaud222 calls 430 and is All-In
Flop: (1,460) 8 2 2 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Turn: (1,460) 6 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
River: (1,460) K (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Results: 1,460 Pot
OkanT showed A 8 (two pair, Eights and Twos) and WON 1,460 (+790 NET)
Mcclaud222 showed A J (a pair of Twos) and LOST (-670 NET)
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HAND #36
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (UTG): 1,200
OkanT (UTG+1): 4,090
spliff77 (MP1): 1,840
skull0606 (MP2): 3,870
Chris Klecz (CO): 1,210
miss williams (BTN): 2,195
Skoblar 13 (SB): 1,485
Hero (BB): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (120) 3 5 dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, skull0606 calls 80, 2 folds, Skoblar 13 calls 40, Hero checks
Flop: (240) A 4 7 (3 Players)
Skoblar 13 checks, Hero ???
What do I do with my double gutshot draw? |
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JDizzzle72
Royal Flush
Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 528
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I feel that MP2 would have raised the majority of the time if he held an ace. SB could have anything, I'd fire a bet of 150 and wait to see how MP2 reacts. Not too scared of SB at this point |
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dcdoorknob
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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(previous hand) Even against 3 opponents, they had every reason to bet if they had any hand that beat you, the board just didn't make any sense for a better hand to check to you imo, and taking the pot on the flop or turn is preferable to letting someone draw out for free given that read. By the river there also isn't much reason for a worse hand to call you, so I do agree with that check at least. In retrospect you were in a great spot as only the last 2 jacks would actually draw someone ahead of you, but I can't imagine that is very common with one pair 4 handed.
(current hand) I like firing out here too, 150 sounds good. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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I probably should have bet here. I'm really not sure why I didn't... Anyway, now what?
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HAND #36
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (UTG): 1,200
OkanT (UTG+1): 4,090
spliff77 (MP1): 1,840
skull0606 (MP2): 3,870
Chris Klecz (CO): 1,210
miss williams (BTN): 2,195
Skoblar 13 (SB): 1,485
Hero (BB): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (120) 3 5 dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, skull0606 calls 80, 2 folds, Skoblar 13 calls 40, Hero checks
Flop: (240) A 4 7 (3 Players)
Skoblar 13 checks, Hero checks, skull0606 bets 80, Skoblar 13 folds, Hero ??? |
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dcdoorknob
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| That's interesting. It's a very weak looking bet, so I could see a raise. On the other hand, its a great price for a very well concealed draw, and there is something to be said for not allowing the guy an opportunity to re-raise you out of your draw. Both of your are deep relatively speaking, so if he has anything there are some pretty decent implied odds. I think I'm leaning towards a call here. |
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JDizzzle72
Royal Flush
Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 528
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd call as well. Since you're both about 45 BB deep, I wouldn't want to make the pot any bigger without a made hand yet. You'll just be in a sticky situation if, for example 2c comes on the turn. Just 1 more reason to only call. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I think I just didn't see the double draw or something, because I can't imagine why I would have played it this weakly. Anyway...
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HAND #36
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (UTG): 1,200
OkanT (UTG+1): 4,090
spliff77 (MP1): 1,840
skull0606 (MP2): 3,870
Chris Klecz (CO): 1,210
miss williams (BTN): 2,195
Skoblar 13 (SB): 1,485
Hero (BB): 3,678
Pre-Flop: (120) 3 5 dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, skull0606 calls 80, 2 folds, Skoblar 13 calls 40, Hero checks
Flop: (240) A 4 7 (3 Players)
Skoblar 13 checks, Hero checks, skull0606 bets 80, 2 folds
Results: 240 Pot
skull0606 mucked and WON 240 (+160 NET)
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HAND #37
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (BB): 1,200
OkanT (UTG): 4,090
spliff77 (UTG+1): 1,840
skull0606 (MP1): 4,030
Chris Klecz (MP2): 1,210
miss williams (CO): 2,195
Skoblar 13 (BTN): 1,405
Hero (SB): 3,598
Pre-Flop: (120) 9 A dealt to Hero (SB)
OkanT calls 80, 5 folds, Hero ??? |
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dcdoorknob
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Eh I imagine I would occasionally miss that draw too.
Does your 'attack weakness' strategy include raising an UTG limper with A9o? Mine wouldn't (at least not until blinds are bigger and its clearer the limper has something marginal) but I can't argue with your results in general. It's a fold for me though. |
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JDizzzle72
Royal Flush
Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 528
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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If the UTG raiser had fewer chips, I would raise to 200-260, but seeing as how he has a big chip stack, I'd fold here
EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, at this point in the tournament, I don't want to get involved in a pot with another good sized stack with a marginal holding. As he does have a good stack in front of him, he is able to sit back and wait for a better hand and let the lower stacks battle it out. Hence, due to his stack and position, I'd say you are at best a coin flip in this situation. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| JDizzzle72 wrote: |
If the UTG raiser had fewer chips, I would raise to 200-260, but seeing as how he has a big chip stack, I'd fold here
EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, at this point in the tournament, I don't want to get involved in a pot with another good sized stack with a marginal holding. As he does have a good stack in front of him, he is able to sit back and wait for a better hand and let the lower stacks battle it out. Hence, due to his stack and position, I'd say you are at best a coin flip in this situation. |
Interesting. This is precisely why I did raise here. I really don't like raising short UTG limpers (or reraising short UTG raisers). If UTG were short, he would likely feel compelled to shove a wider range, and generally less likely limping in with a hand he will fold to aggression. But with his deeper (but not extremely deep) stack, I feel that he is more likely to fold to a PF raise.
Maybe this thinking is flawed? He did call...
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HAND #37
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Suicide King007 (BB): 1,200
OkanT (UTG): 4,090
spliff77 (UTG+1): 1,840
skull0606 (MP1): 4,030
Chris Klecz (MP2): 1,210
miss williams (CO): 2,195
Skoblar 13 (BTN): 1,405
Hero (SB): 3,598
Pre-Flop: (120) 9 A dealt to Hero (SB)
OkanT calls 80, 5 folds, Hero raises to 320, Suicide King007 folds, OkanT calls 240
Flop: (720) 3 5 9 (2 Players)
Hero ???
I hit TPTK. How do I proceed here? |
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JDizzzle72
Royal Flush
Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 528
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| nilgiri wrote: |
| JDizzzle72 wrote: |
If the UTG raiser had fewer chips, I would raise to 200-260, but seeing as how he has a big chip stack, I'd fold here
EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, at this point in the tournament, I don't want to get involved in a pot with another good sized stack with a marginal holding. As he does have a good stack in front of him, he is able to sit back and wait for a better hand and let the lower stacks battle it out. Hence, due to his stack and position, I'd say you are at best a coin flip in this situation. |
Interesting. This is precisely why I did raise here. I really don't like raising short UTG limpers (or reraising short UTG raisers). If UTG were short, he would likely feel compelled to shove a wider range, and generally less likely limping in with a hand he will fold to aggression. But with his deeper (but not extremely deep) stack, I feel that he is more likely to fold to a PF raise.
Maybe this thinking is flawed? He did call... |
In this particular situation, there is no shorty who I would want to raise after a UTG play either - everyone's chip stacks are still ample for decent play. I guess my statement before is more directed at short stacks with </= 6-8x BB, and not really relevant this hand.
While your 4x BB raise is standard for a SB raise, I don't feel that is +EV against the big stack of the table. I would think that with his UTG limp he will have a mid PP or AT+ maybe 80% of the time, with the other 20% being some sort of suited connectors. Although, you must be doing something right, with your stats.
For the hand at hand (ha?) amazing flop for you, bet out 400-475ish imo. Club draw never looks good, and if he did indeed hit a set (which I feel is quite possible with utg limp/call. small - med pp would seem in his range) it is enough to get a feel of where you're at, and potentially take down the pot. |
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