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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| esperz wrote: |
Comments, Riddim? |
I'll give some comments. You should be raising somewhere around 40% of your buttons in most 6max games. You should be raising with suited connectors below JT in the CO. I'd probably raise all the way down to 54s.
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From your position in button, raise every single damn hand in your range and only call a re-raise if you got JJ+ or KQos or KQs+.
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I would not be calling reraises w/ KQ in a lot of spots unless the villian is doing a lot of 3 betting. KQ is just dominated too much by hands that the villian would 3 bet with, especially when you both get it in on the flop. But this all depends on your opponent.
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| Try not to bluff with any of your hands unless you got more than 8 outs. |
Bluffing should be based on your opponents range and how likely they will fold given the pot odds you are offering on your bluff. How many outs you have is important, but there are so many other considerations you should think about. Using a rule like that is a bad idea imo. You should be bluffing with less than 8 outs often if the situation is a good one. |
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esperz
Full House
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Drtre, major basis for my advice was that the man appears to be calling with way too many hands. I was trying to cut some of it out. That said...
1.) When we raise down to 54s, all we are trying to do at this point is steal the blinds unless we hit our miracle flop at about 15% of the time or if we deduce our opponent's range is so miniscule we can bet on board not showing faces. ...but we can do that with any hand, much less 45, 56, 67. I understand the reasoning here, as that 15% of the time we'll be making enough money to justify it, but even then, are we so sure we want to isolate the pot in these types of situations? If we fold vs. any reasonable bet on a believable board, it wouldn't matter how many opponents call. If we want to play these types of hands from CO, I'd be more than willing to allow more than a couple callers into the pot.
2.) Agreed.
3.) Again, agreed. Point of reason here was that man here seems to be whiffing on his bluffs. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Some more possibly pertinent information:
I am playing 6-max. I'm not sure if everyone is on the same page about that.
EDIT: That range I posted is really not correct. It was a guess at what I thought I'd play mixed with what I had played until that point (which was not many hands). I am playing looser than that. I will have to look later and see what my ranges actually are...
Right now I am up 16.66 bbs/100 (big blinds -- can someone tell me what the standard is here for notating this? HM uses bbs as big blinds. I've seen elsewhere BBs as "big bets," which I understand to be 2x big blind.) I am running 22.1/17.9/4.17 over 2371 hands. I am actually down about $140 in terms of EV for my 77 hands where I saw a showdown. Meaning if I were winning the "average" amount, I would expect to be up another $140, which would mean I would be up 22.56 bbs/100.
I'm beginning to think that my problems were mostly stemming from playing too many hands, and that I kept trying to bluff too often. Now I am bluffing much less often and playing fewer hands, and it does appear to be working better so far. I have a very steady upward flow of profit from graphing just the hands where I don't see a showdown -- there aren't big swings like there are when I get it all in. In other words, in situations where I have a lot more control (because the cards never determine the winner), I am very steadily earning a profit (14.4 bbs/100 out of 2294 hands). I think this is the most indicative stat for whether I am now doing something correctly.
I don't have enough experience with these numbers to really know where I stand compared to others. I'm guessing my stats say I am still a bit loose? I could use some help on this.
In particular, I have difficulty with where to tighten up. I am up 88 bbs/100 right now raising unopened from the button. But if I look at hands excluding AT+,KJ+,22+, then I am actually down 53 bbs/100. So on the face of it, it looks like I could tighten up that range a lot and get rid of PF hands that aren't profitable. But then will I get called as often on the button when I have a good hand? This is also only over 186 hands, so it may not even be time to adjust anything yet. (I am down a lot more raising unopened from SB, so it appears I probably should tighten up and not try to steal the BB as often. Even if I do get a call when I have a good hand, I am OOP and am not as likely to get paid off when I hit a great hand.)
This has all been mostly 3- or 4-tabling, with some 1- and 2-tabling while I play $24+2 45- and 90-man tourneys. I may try stepping this up to 6-tabling in the near future (probably after 5k-ish hands) if things are still running well. Multitabling is extremely helpful in letting me see a bit past variance, and more tables will help generate more stats. I don't really feel like I am held back by 4 tables, but I'll have to see what things are like with 6.
Guys, this thread has been an absolutely enormous help to me. Thank you so much. I now feel that I have somewhere to begin, whereas before I was so frustrated and confused that I had no clue how to even start. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Out of the stats you've mentioned in your last post, the only ones that are relevant at all after just 2300 hands are vpip/pfr. Those look reasonable and the only reason I suggested playing tighter is that you were having trouble winning. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| esperz wrote: |
1.) When we raise down to 54s, all we are trying to do at this point is steal the blinds unless we hit our miracle flop at about 15% of the time or if we deduce our opponent's range is so miniscule we can bet on board not showing faces. ...but we can do that with any hand, much less 45, 56, 67. I understand the reasoning here, as that 15% of the time we'll be making enough money to justify it, but even then, are we so sure we want to isolate the pot in these types of situations? If we fold vs. any reasonable bet on a believable board, it wouldn't matter how many opponents call. If we want to play these types of hands from CO, I'd be more than willing to allow more than a couple callers into the pot.
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When we raise with 54s from the CO or the button, we are not just trying to steal the blinds (although that is not a bad result). We are also trying to get the villian to call and fold to a bet on the flop. By raising a wide range on the button, you will make so much more money by picking up a lot of blinds and small pots on the flop.
And this especially works at the lower stakes where your opponents do not know the proper way to defend against a loose button opener. One benifit you get is that your opponents will often adjust incorrectly to your loose button opens and put you in profitable situations. For instance, some villians start calling a lot of your raises OOP. This then gives you position throughout the hand and your opponent still will fold to most of your cbets anyway. Other opponents will start 3 betting you a lot more, but with the wrong ranges. Some villians will start 3 betting hands that get them into trouble (AT/88 hands that will often put them in trouble spots on the flop). |
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BillsFan55
High Card
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| I was about to post the same problem...does well in SNG's and tournies but struggling at cash games. Reading all of these responses has been a big help. I will be at the bookstore today to get the 2 books discussed. Thanks to all for your openess and help. |
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kzm214
Pair
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Nil where did you come up with your stats? From holdem manager or what? |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, from HM. |
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doubledownA
Banned
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 3323
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| You call a flop, you go to the river...you have to learn to fold marginal hands, instead of taking them all to the river. |
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1337-Sanchez
Two Pair
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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oooohhh I know this!!!!
in cash games you have to outplay people....
in SnG's you can just sit there....
right? |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 2089
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you for your helpful, informative post. |
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