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nilgiri

Ok, so without intending to boast, I consider myself very good at HU SnGs. I consistently profit at 9-man and 6-man SnGs. I am pulling in quite a good profit at 45-man SnGs, and a nice profit at 90-man KOs as well. I profit at MTTs, although I haven't played enough to call myself consistently profitable.

I can't profit at cash games.

I suppose I should qualify that. I am experimenting with buying in at the minimum and shoving good hands, plus a little extra variation on that, and I am indeed profiting at that. Not very much. It's rocky. And it's boring. I want to play deeper stack cash games. Every time I do, I fail miserably. At least I can make the money up playing SnGs, but seriously, I'd be far richer right now if I hadn't even tried to play these.

So... I need to understand what my problem is. I know vague general posts like these suck, so I'm hoping I can get a little more specific. Let's start with something sort of fundamental that I don't feel that I am able to do: How can I go about finding leaks using Holdem Manager? I own this, I just don't use it for anything except stats on HUDs.

Any extra advice like common holes would be great. I feel like I must have the ability to be profitable, given that I am clearly a profitable poker player in general. But I just don't know how to play cash games. It's really pissing me off! Even if I am more profitable at SnGs, and I never play cash games again, that would be fine as long as I knew I could profit at them. But what the hey? How can I win at everything else and lose at cash games?

Thanks for any help... I'll post some HHs if people want. But honestly, I don't even know where to begin with HHs...

Honest_Rob · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject:

How many ring game hands have you played?

missjugsalot · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject:

Im sure youll get some great replies. This may not be one of them. I play only cash, mostly HU, I am profitible. The hardest transitions for me from tourneys was learning to play all sorts of hands. Something about raising alot of the time with not much took some getting used to as well. For me the fear of busting out of tourneys kept me playing very tight, which at a cash game 6max or HU esp will get you run over fast. Cash games are about deciding when to push hands that you wouldnt risk your tourney on nearly as easily. You have to not spew off your chips when you strongly suspect you are beat. So many of the players I see, get caught , know they got caught and spew anyway. Of course, I wasnt really all that profitable at tourneys so what do I know? Just keep playing cash games and feeling it out, I assume you lost while learning to be profitable at tourneys? Oh and stay away from the super micro limits, unless you just want to do that whole wait and push thing you talked about. Im sure this wasnt all that helpful, but like I said someone else will come along and give you the magic formula.......GL

drtre1987 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2131

Read No Limit Holdem: Theory and Practice by David Sklansky. It is really what got me started in cash games. While it doesn't teach you how to play, it does teach you how to think about the game. Professional No Limit Holdem by Ed Miller and others is also good. While there are some things in their book I disagree with, most of the book has really solid material. The absolute best thing to do would be to get Card Runners, but it does cost a lot. So that might not be right for you. But if you are serious about improving your cash game play, then Card Runners is a must.

My guess is that you have some fundamental leaks in your turn and river play, as well as putting your opponent on hand ranges.. In one thread a couple of weeks ago, you said that you were betting in one situation in a HU cash game hand where it should be a clear check. There are just sitautions like this where you are making the wrong play deep in the hand that will cost you in the long run. These leaks in your play probably just haven't come in effect yet because you rarely get to play deep in SNG or MTT.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:03 am Post subject:

Does Holdem Manager have filters that let you look at wins and loses for specific hands? Like, if you wanted to see how you do playing medium pairs, suited one gapers or JTs? You might be able to notice some leaks.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8176 Location: Sweden

Personally, I think the best use of programs like HM for plugging leaks is simply going through hands you've played and thinking about alternate lines. As for why you aren't making money, my guess would be that your biggest issue is that you don't plan your hands enough and/or think them through properly.

What is your opponent's range and how will he react with different parts of it to a bet/raise? If you bet/raise/check/call on this street, what is likely to happen on the next street given your actions and villain's range? Keep these things in mind while playing and base your actions on them, then go over some interesting hands after the session and examine your thought process.

Experience is key here, so keep trying if you want to improve. As you get a better idea of what ranges people will tend to have in different spots and how they'll react with them, you'll be able to refine your lines and find better ways to handle the situations you find yourself in. Also make sure to stay focused and not tilt. It will make all of the above infinitely easier.

nilgiri · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject:

Starvingwriter · Full House Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 174

UFO1947 · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject:

are you playing Limit or NL?

I too am a SnG player trying to break into the ring games, I have been playing $10nl holdem seriously for about 3000 hands now and was getting killed there.

I have now regrouped and developed a new approach to the game and things are going well.

Basically I play tight (top ten hands) in EP and then slowly expand my opening hand ranges as I get to the later postions. Also it depends on the players at the table.

if you have a very loose players to your left you won't be able to steal the blinds as much and you will have to have a tigher opening hand range. however if they are tight/nitty then you can steal with any 2 cards and raise with a wider range.

also if you notice certin players who act before you like to always limp and hardly ever raise pre flop try raising them. you would be surprised what a lot of people try and limp with.

oh and never open limp.

there is a lot more to it then what I wrote and most if not all of it might only really work at 10nl, but these are the steps I'm taking to get better at cash.

drtre1987 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2131

PokerJessO · Straight Flush Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 414

Pick up Harrington's latest book on cash games. It highlights the fundamental mistakes players make when going from tourneys to cash games. The big things he stresses in cash games are trying to see lots of cheap flops, and not to overvalue top pair or an overpair. He also explains a lot about pot control and the concept of 'small hand, small pot; big hand, big pot'. It helped my game tremendously already.

UFO1947 · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject:

Big Slick x13x · Forum Icon Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 4324 Location: ROK

I can say that the biggest mistake that I see when winning tournament players make the switch to cash games is that they fold too much. What is your W$SD% and went to showdown %? Your W$SD should be between 52-54% If it's much higher then that it could be indication that you're folding too much, possibly in big pots where you're a favorite against your opponents range or a slight underdog but getting a great price(> 2:1)

LordAvaran · High Card Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 1

I'm very new to this, but I thought I should add my two cents.

nilgiri;
First off, I am following your 45-man SnG HH. It's very interesting. You are quite loose for playing tourneys compared to me. I've tried SnG and had too much variance to find the right approach.

I played Cash games since just a couple of nights back and I noticed that I am on a positive balance, basically doubling a stack up once an hour, sometimes once every 20 minutes. The main difference I find here is that you sit around and test your opponents a little but and feel the table out. See approximately what ranges people call with. Then, attempt to, as cheaply as possible, get into a good drawing hand (suited connectors, small connectors) when playing someone who bets top pair with a deep stack. You won't always hit, and as a rule, don't even try bluffing if they don't perceive you as an intimidating and strong player.

Once you hit a great draw or flop the nuts, figure out the best way of building a pot depending on what type of opponent you are playing.
-Aggressive players build the pot themselves, just act like you are hesitating between calls.
-Passive players need small raises to keep them chasing another draw (only let them chase if you are sure they play weak/dead tables, or you'll regret it
-PPs will try to raise you out of the hand. Don't call them to show that you are/have drawn cards, instantly reraise and get them pot commited

nilgiri · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject:

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