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fiddlepuck
Three of a Kind
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Limping in....is it ever ok? |
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I tend to PUNISH habitual limpers, by raising a wide range in position, and utilizing the C-bet, until they catch on. It usually means Im able to capture a number of pots form them, until they stop limping, or start fighting back....
here is the question... is it ever ok to limp with SC's and the such, if no one is taking on the role as punsiher??? |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6431
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. Actually if a bunch of people have limped in front and they play badly postflop, limping is usually better than raising with most speculative hands.
Open-limping isn't as good and you're usually better off raising when first in. But there are some situations where open-limping might be alright. |
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esperz
Full House
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Sure. I can think of a half dozen scenarios off the top of my head.
1.) On an aggressive table, UTG+2 or more with a monster hand, AA KK. Somone is likely to raise you which in turn allows you another re-raise. (Maximizing pot size.)
2.) 3 limpers or more and you are holding suited connectors or low PPs or Axs. (Proper pot odds towards a huge pot.)
3.) Late game tourney with many short stacks below 10bb, gives them the oppurtunity to shove with marginal holdings which you can simply call. (Maximizing pot size.)
4.) You are holding something you do not want to raise for whatever reason, but you would defintely call a raise with (KQs OOP comes to mind). (Increasing fold equity on empty board.)
5.) If you are on a massively passive table and can bluff nearly any hand post flop. (Stealing pots.)
6.) If you just happen to have over 250bbs in any tourney. (Proper pot odds.) |
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renegades8
Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: griiiiinding
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| To add to what's been said, I think limping is much more acceptable when you're playing full ring than it is 6-max. I'm also not that likely to open limp when I'm first in the pot, but more likely to do it after a couple of limpers. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4324
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| esperz wrote: |
4.) You are holding something you do not want to raise for whatever reason, but you would defintely call a raise with (KQs OOP comes to mind). (Increasing fold equity on empty board.)
5.) If you are on a massively passive table and can bluff nearly any hand post flop. (Stealing pots.)
6.) If you just happen to have over 250bbs in any tourney. (Proper pot odds.) |
You were on a good roll till these last three. KQs OOP is a terrible hand to play in a raised pot OOP. Since were limping I"m assuming it's a full 9-10 man table and I can think of a lot of better hands to play OOP. Hands like middle suited connectors and small PPs play much better in the situation you're describing then KQs. How does limp calling with a trap hand increase fold equity?
At a MASSIVELY passive table I prefer value betting to bluffing. Since most passive tables are also loose, they'll be calling you down insanely light and bluffing is terrible. A Tight passive table I'd gladly fire a bluff at but not many second barrels.
If you "happen to have" over 250bbs in a tourney and start limping in a wide range hands you're just killing table and not in a good way. People are less likely to get into pots with you with marginal hands and more likely to just take their shot to double up. If you're lucky and your timing works out well you can knock some people out. Otherwise you're just spreading your stack around the table. Your pot odds don't change based on your stack size. pot odds are based on the size of the pot. Your implied odds and reverse implied odds would increase with the bigger stack but only if other players had a large stack. If you have 250bbs and everyone else has 10bbs, you don't even have odds to go set mining.
For my thoughts on open limping: At a 6max table it's never ok to open limp. period. At full ring, open limping from ep is a great tool to have. Just remember to mix your range up. Don't ALWAYS do anything. Also if you plan on limping in ep then make sure your post flop play is pretty strong, since you're likely going to be oop in a multiway pot. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| It depends on the table. If there's a good chance getting to see the flop with a marginal hand by just limping then why not. |
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tooloose4u
High Card
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| In low limits I often limp when everybody else has limped, because usually most of them are calling stations that will just call my raise anyway, so I just limp along and hope I hit something. Maybe it's a bad strategy but the implied odds for when you hit something are pretty big, since a lot of them will pay you a fair chunk if you bet the right amounts. |
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esperz
Full House
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Big Slick x13x wrote: |
| esperz wrote: |
4.) You are holding something you do not want to raise for whatever reason, but you would defintely call a raise with (KQs OOP comes to mind). (Increasing fold equity on empty board.)
5.) If you are on a massively passive table and can bluff nearly any hand post flop. (Stealing pots.)
6.) If you just happen to have over 250bbs in any tourney. (Proper pot odds.) |
You were on a good roll till these last three. KQs OOP is a terrible hand to play in a raised pot OOP. Since were limping I"m assuming it's a full 9-10 man table and I can think of a lot of better hands to play OOP. Hands like middle suited connectors and small PPs play much better in the situation you're describing then KQs. How does limp calling with a trap hand increase fold equity?
At a MASSIVELY passive table I prefer value betting to bluffing. Since most passive tables are also loose, they'll be calling you down insanely light and bluffing is terrible. A Tight passive table I'd gladly fire a bluff at but not many second barrels.
If you "happen to have" over 250bbs in a tourney and start limping in a wide range hands you're just killing table and not in a good way. People are less likely to get into pots with you with marginal hands and more likely to just take their shot to double up. If you're lucky and your timing works out well you can knock some people out. Otherwise you're just spreading your stack around the table. Your pot odds don't change based on your stack size. pot odds are based on the size of the pot. Your implied odds and reverse implied odds would increase with the bigger stack but only if other players had a large stack. If you have 250bbs and everyone else has 10bbs, you don't even have odds to go set mining.
For my thoughts on open limping: At a 6max table it's never ok to open limp. period. At full ring, open limping from ep is a great tool to have. Just remember to mix your range up. Don't ALWAYS do anything. Also if you plan on limping in ep then make sure your post flop play is pretty strong, since you're likely going to be oop in a multiway pot. |
Meh. What do you want me to say? Depends on circumstances, players, and such things. Only thing I can really defend beyond personal choice is #6.
If I have such a huge stack (40k at 75/150 for example)... I'm pretty much limping in with anything that could destroy a favorite hand (56s, 67s, 78s, 22-77) where I would normally fold otherwise. If I limp with those otherwise garbage hands 10 times and it hits only once, I'm a happy guy. ...I guess at that point, I'm much more likely to start playing odds as opposed to intial hand strength. This doesn't mean I'm being stupid or undisciplined... Just means my range opened up 2x. I'm not really sure how to explain it.
It pays off enough for me to justify it. That's all I can really say. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4324
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Esperz, I'm sure it only seems like it pays off enough. You have a gaping hole in your tournament play if you're limping that much. What do you do when players see what you're doing and adjust? do you just tighten up? They'll notice that too. The only way I could see that paying off is if you get dealt something like JJ+, AK right as they start to adjust which doesn't really happen often enough. Then again if you're playing at low enough limit tournaments it doesn't really matter much what you do because the field is so terrible they won't notice.
The points that I made aren't really much of personal opinion more like the best option. I will say that your tournament style does do one thing very well and that's annoy the hell out of players like me because you're spewing chips to all the players at the table. You're giving the bad players more equity in the tournament which decreases the ev of playing the tournament for the winning players. |
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