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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: the pale blue dot
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 Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: KK facing turn raise |
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In limited hands MP2 seems to be a solid TAG player. Not much of a read though. Only played 30 hands maybe. What's the turn play? Can we ever get away from KK on a fairly dry board like this?
Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
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Hero (UTG): $38.95
UTG+1: $32.65
MP1: $42.35
MP2: $33.75
CO: $29.45
BTN: $15.50
SB: $27.95
BB: $33
Pre-Flop: K K dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, BB calls $0.75
Flop: ($3.10) 4 6 T (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, MP2 calls $2, BB folds
Turn: ($7.10) J (2 Players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 raises to $17, Hero ? |
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Jackten11
Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| I would have to say call. Obviously the only thing to be scared of is the set, and I am not convinced he has one with his flat call on the flop. If the JJ made his set, I think he would have re raised pre flop. If he has one of the flop cards he has played this well, only because of what you have, but I would have to think he is on AJ personally. |
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lovebeefstew
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 1665
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jackten11 wrote: |
| I would have to say call. Obviously the only thing to be scared of is the set, and I am not convinced he has one with his flat call on the flop. If the JJ made his set, I think he would have re raised pre flop. If he has one of the flop cards he has played this well, only because of what you have, but I would have to think he is on AJ personally. |
+1 |
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drtre1987
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand what you are implying by "can we get away from KK on such a dry flop?" I would say that it is much easier to let go of a hand like that on a dry flop since a dry flop has no flush or straight draws that could be in the villians range. Dry flops narrow their range down so much that against FR TAGs, you can probably default to a ck/c on turns like this and fire the river if it gets ck behind.
Most FR TAGs will not float these flops and pay off 3 streets. So if they do have a hand like 99 here, they will not call a turn and river bet, but may likely call a single bet on the river. Also, you have to think about your opponents calling range here. He could obvisouly have a set. Also, you have to think that he might have a random mid pair that he is floating with. I also think that they almost never have AK or AQ in this spot. They would 3bet AK most of the time preflop and AQ and any AK they flat with would probably be ck/r instead of ck/c.
So against this type of range, I tend to ck/c turn. If they bet the turn and the river, you will be in a tough spot and you should fold against most opponents that fall under this category of FR TAG. Since they are representing just pairs, they have showdown value with their non-set hands. Therefore, good opponents will not turn their hand into a bluff and will just ck down 99 OTR.
FWIW, I think this illustrates a big difference in FR and 6max games. I'd almost never advocate playing this hand this way at 6max. |
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mistaken69
Banned
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 1699
Location: taking up smoking
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| umm this is FR, you raised UTG, bet/called the flop. You've repped a huge hand and he doesn't even care. You will see a set here a **** if he's ur standard FR tagnit. I would fold the turn |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4324
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| I would gladly get it in on the flop, but this turn is horrible. I'm usually folding here. Not only does a set beat you but TJ got there. And I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother plays TJ. |
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Honest_Rob
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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: the pale blue dot
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
| I don't understand what you are implying by "can we get away from KK on such a dry flop?" |
You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying this looks like a place I'm beat because there aren't really any draws. I rarely fold overpairs against one opponent at .10/.25 because there are lots of stupid players but this guy seemed half decent and there weren't really any draws so I was thinking I need to fold this turn. Also I didn't say on the flop I said on the board meaning after the turn has been dealt. |
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drtre1987
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2132
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
| I don't understand what you are implying by "can we get away from KK on such a dry flop?" |
You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying this looks like a place I'm beat because there aren't really any draws. I rarely fold overpairs against one opponent at .10/.25 because there are lots of stupid players but this guy seemed half decent and there weren't really any draws so I was thinking I need to fold this turn. Also I didn't say on the flop I said on the board meaning after the turn has been dealt. |
Ok I misunderstood that. Thanks for clarifying |
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Honest_Rob
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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: the pale blue dot
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
| I don't understand what you are implying by "can we get away from KK on such a dry flop?" |
You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying this looks like a place I'm beat because there aren't really any draws. I rarely fold overpairs against one opponent at .10/.25 because there are lots of stupid players but this guy seemed half decent and there weren't really any draws so I was thinking I need to fold this turn. Also I didn't say on the flop I said on the board meaning after the turn has been dealt. |
Ok I misunderstood that. Thanks for clarifying |
lol After going back and reading what I originally wrote I see why you took it that way. I meant it from the context of I'm not usually trying to get away from an overpair at this level against only one opponent however considering these circumstances it seems like one of the rare times I should be folding here. |
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gamblingparlour
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| I would be moving all in if I was hero, you couldn't have much better cards on the table with KK. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8181
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| This seems like a really easy fold. The only hands he could possibly have that you beat are 75 and 87 and even when he does have those hands and decides to play them aggressively he's probably way more likely to raise the flop than wait for the turn. I think you're almost always up against a set or JT here. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| gamblingparlour wrote: |
| I would be moving all in if I was hero, you couldn't have much better cards on the table with KK. |
If you had such a desire to go allin with KK, surely you would have been doing that much earlier. Too late to play heavy in the turn when you've given your opponents plenty of opportunity to beat you.
| Riddim wrote: |
| This seems like a really easy fold. The only hands he could possibly have that you beat are 75 and 87 and even when he does have those hands and decides to play them aggressively he's probably way more likely to raise the flop than wait for the turn. I think you're almost always up against a set or JT here. |
This is why I hate the idea of these types of preflop raises with KK. Personally I doubt 75, 87 or a range of marginal hands but there was almost enough encouragement to play such hands.
It could also be AT AJ or possibly someone who thinks hero might have nothing, but honestly it's too high a price ($12 + probable $13 = $25 more) to find out.
Ps, I'd probably gamble on it being a set. |
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drtre1987
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: |
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This is why I hate the idea of these types of preflop raises with KK.
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??? Hate the idea of these preflop raises? What are you suggesting we do preflop? Anything but a raise is super fishy. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8181
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
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This is why I hate the idea of these types of preflop raises with KK.
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??? Hate the idea of these preflop raises? What are you suggesting we do preflop? Anything but a raise is super fishy. |
I'm pretty sure he means that the raise is too small. bdbranch, with stacks this deep we're going to need to make some big folds with overpairs postflop unless we make ridiculously huge PF raises, so we might as well make a normal raise to get him to call with speculative hands thinking he has implied odds. There's also that thing about not completely giving your hand away by your raise size that I mentioned in some other thread a while back. A bigger raise means that we have to make it with an even tighter range than we normally would UTG, which is no fun. |
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GoldenDomer9
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Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1963
Location: CAP tbls
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for chiming in so late, but a big +1 for mucking here. I have a ton of FR $25NL experience and you are just never, ever, good here. Also, please note that said opinion is coming from a guy who hates giving these low stakes players credit. This spot is really tough to not give the villain credit though.
Into the muck, high five monitor, we save monies! |
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