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Sabakka
Straight Flush
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Orlando, FL
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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So... Presumably, this is small or micro limits. The table is loose, you have 20 bb remaining and you are dealt KK UTG.
How big of a raise would you throw in ?
Btw I think 5x bb utg is a standard raise at micros with full stack. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2015
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sabakka wrote: |
So... Presumably, this is small or micro limits. The table is loose, you have 20 bb remaining and you are dealt KK UTG.
How big of a raise would you throw in ?
Btw I think 5x bb utg is a standard raise at micros with full stack. |
I raise 3 or 3.5bb. |
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StevieWard
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 1491
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| Raise less PF, like 2.5-3 BBs. There's no need to make bigger raises with a stack that short. Once you get to this flop with this many opponents you can check/fold pretty comfortably. |
+1. Obviously if A isn't there i get it all in. |
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mistaken69
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 1597
Location: taking up smoking
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bxball wrote: |
not to sound like a dick, but you obviously haven't played enough to realize how many bad players there are out there. I've seen hundreds of players call with an A-rag because it's suited, or for whatever reason then fold because they don't like their kicker when they hit. it's a terrible play but it's one that's made by weak players way more often than you'd think. |
not to be a dick but this thread was retarded enough before you came in and dumbed it up even more. |
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StevieWard
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 1491
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mistaken69 wrote: |
| bxball wrote: |
not to sound like a dick, but you obviously haven't played enough to realize how many bad players there are out there. I've seen hundreds of players call with an A-rag because it's suited, or for whatever reason then fold because they don't like their kicker when they hit. it's a terrible play but it's one that's made by weak players way more often than you'd think. |
not to be a dick but this thread was retarded enough before you came in and dumbed it up even more. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2015
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bxball wrote: |
not to sound like a dick, but you obviously haven't played enough to realize how many bad players there are out there. I've seen hundreds of players call with an A-rag because it's suited, or for whatever reason then fold because they don't like their kicker when they hit. it's a terrible play but it's one that's made by weak players way more often than you'd think. |
How many more hands have you played than me? Seriously, I am totaly unaware of how much over-whelming experience you have compared to me. |
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bxball
Pair
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 41
Location: Borgata $2-5nl
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| no you guys are right.. everybody, especially micro-limit players, play solid by-the-book poker. my bad. |
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Starvingwriter
Full House
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| bxball wrote: |
| no you guys are right.. everybody, especially micro-limit players, play solid by-the-book poker. my bad. |
Obviously not everyone plays solid poker. You're still missing a solid point here, and that is that it's very difficult to bluff a bad player. Most of the time, if a bad player bets or calls holding Ace-rag and hits it, they aren't getting off the hand.
Anyone with A8 or better is likely hoping their kicker is good enough to get them there, since A8 has half the other Ace-Rags beat. A7 and A3 aren't going away at this point either, obviously.
So, assuming the player with Ace-Rag was bad enough to call in the first place, you can likely push them off A2, A4, A5, and A6. Any ace other than that is likely going to call here. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jameric4 wrote: |
Dealt KK utg. Raise 4 times BB and get 4 callers.
Flop is A,7,3.
Your remaining stack is slightly more than the pot.
What's your play?
Would your play be any different in cash vs. tourney?
What about in tourney on bubble with enough of a stack left to "fold to the money"? |
First of all, this post doesn't make much sense. If this is a micro cash game 5c/10c, then the person at best is at minimum buyin of $2(on some sites half min buyin). As such there would be no strategy. If this is a tourney then this person is massively shortstacked and again there would be no strategy.
But we will ignore these obvious faults. Lets see ... You have 25bb's. You put 5bb's in preflop. This leaves you with 20bb's. Even if only 1 person called, that would result in a pot of 10-11bb's.
In truth, any bet postflop would essentially be committing you to being allin. Now you should be making your opponents pay a premium for that commitment. As such I believe that 8-9bb's would have been the correct bet (with the clear view of going allin postflop). Make them pay high for the chance of hitting their 'magical' ace.
Postflop. Now you have 4 callers and a ace has come. At least 1 person has an ace (probably 2). Few ace/rag options (and these might not even fold). There's nothing that you can do, the hand is lost.
| Quote: |
| What about in tourney on bubble with enough of a stack left to "fold to the money"? |
This situation is totally unrealistic on a tourney 'bubble' situation. Your not going to get 4 callers. Also personnally, I don't hold much value in scrapping into the money. 3 or so buyins, really. Much better to risk missing out in my opinion. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bxball wrote: |
| 8bb?? that is honestly one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... i'm sorry if any offense is taken to this, but seriously... 8 big blinds? under the gun? hahaha absurd |
| Riddim wrote: |
| Raise less PF, like 2.5-3 BBs. There's no need to make bigger raises with a stack that short. Once you get to this flop with this many opponents you can check/fold pretty comfortably. |
I have to disagree with this. Now forgetting that the original post itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the reasons for disagreeing is as follows.
A person is shortstacked. They have KK. What are they waiting for AA? Each time the blind comes, a large chunk of their stack will go missing. A shortstacked person generally has two options. 1: go in when they want to or 2: have that decided at another players choosing.
A shortstacked person has to commit to a hand. KK is better than any other options that they will most likely get. Raising 2-3bbs is just asking for too many people to beat you. Far better to make others pay a premium for the chance of hitting their 'precious' little ace. And for some reason people like calling the shortstacks so why not make them pay for it. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7700
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
I have to disagree with this. Now forgetting that the original post itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the reasons for disagreeing is as follows.
A person is shortstacked. They have KK. What are they waiting for AA? Each time the blind comes, a large chunk of their stack will go missing. A shortstacked person generally has two options. 1: go in when they want to or 2: have that decided at another players choosing.
A shortstacked person has to commit to a hand. KK is better than any other options that they will most likely get. Raising 2-3bbs is just asking for too many people to beat you. Far better to make others pay a premium for the chance of hitting their 'precious' little ace. And for some reason people like calling the shortstacks so why not make them pay for it. |
You know that people don't always have A-rag, right? Do you also understand that KK isn't the only hand hero will want to play in this situation? While I think 2.5 BBs is generally a bit too small, there are plenty of tournament situations where I'd prefer it over a bigger raise. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| bdbranch wrote: |
I have to disagree with this. Now forgetting that the original post itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the reasons for disagreeing is as follows.
A person is shortstacked. They have KK. What are they waiting for AA? Each time the blind comes, a large chunk of their stack will go missing. A shortstacked person generally has two options. 1: go in when they want to or 2: have that decided at another players choosing.
A shortstacked person has to commit to a hand. KK is better than any other options that they will most likely get. Raising 2-3bbs is just asking for too many people to beat you. Far better to make others pay a premium for the chance of hitting their 'precious' little ace. And for some reason people like calling the shortstacks so why not make them pay for it. |
You know that people don't always have A-rag, right? Do you also understand that KK isn't the only hand hero will want to play in this situation? While I think 2.5 BBs is generally a bit too small, there are plenty of tournament situations where I'd prefer it over a bigger raise. |
Of course. I'm often amazed at what people call good raises with. JQ offsuit, TQ offsuit etc. But who am I to say, for some reason it appears to work for these people (It most certainly would never work for me).
I can't realistically see a better situation for a shortstack then being given KK. Personally I'd much prefer to lose after somebody paid too much then to give people suitable odds to beat me.
And finally when shortstacked, I'd much prefer to take the chance of losing then to die that slow & agonising shortstack blind kiss of death. |
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bluestone10
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 1174
Location: The Southern (and a little western) USA
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| check, fold to big bet. for sure someone called with any ace |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7700
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
I can't realistically see a better situation for a shortstack then being given KK. Personally I'd much prefer to lose after somebody paid too much then to give people suitable odds to beat me.
And finally when shortstacked, I'd much prefer to take the chance of losing then to die that slow & agonising shortstack blind kiss of death. |
Except for the part about not giving people odds, how is the above even relevant to the post you quoted? And speaking of that, we're rarely giving people odds to beat us by raising smaller when stacks are this short. That line of thinking is incomplete in general as well, because it assumes that they won't stack off when they make a hand worse than ours on the flop. It also completely fails to take into account the times when we don't have KK. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| bdbranch wrote: |
I can't realistically see a better situation for a shortstack then being given KK. Personally I'd much prefer to lose after somebody paid too much then to give people suitable odds to beat me.
And finally when shortstacked, I'd much prefer to take the chance of losing then to die that slow & agonising shortstack blind kiss of death. |
Except for the part about not giving people odds, how is the above even relevant to the post you quoted? And speaking of that, we're rarely giving people odds to beat us by raising smaller when stacks are this short. That line of thinking is incomplete in general as well, because it assumes that they won't stack off when they make a hand worse than ours on the flop. It also completely fails to take into account the times when we don't have KK. |
Re question of relevance. I'm not going to quote all I've said, just to refer people to all of it above.
So what if it isn't KK? What if it's 75 or 82? |
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