Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

twriter · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject: Bad play(?)

I decided to give another go at a NL tournament. While not having a lot of tournament experience overall, most of what I've played is limit tournaments, but even that is few than a dozen in the past year.

Yet I did fairly well. I think I made a bad play at the end.

B&M, 136 people entered. The top 16 cashed. the field was down to fewer than 60, I had a stack that was between $4500 and $5000 with blinds at $300 and $600 and antes of $60, so there was about $1500 in the pot to start.

In middle position I saw JJ after everyone had folded. I dedided to make a pot-size raise, $1500 to go, and got one caller. The flop came with 2 undercards and a Q. I decided it was a right time to show a bit of aggression (I typically play on the tight side) and went all-in with slightly more than $3000. I got called (and slightly covered) by what turned out to be AQ.

While I'm pretty pleased that I managed to last that long (58th), looking back, while I like the idea of showing some aggression at key times (born from the idea that for success you can't be afraid to lose), I don't know if an all-in play at that time was right,, and if so, why, and if not, why not.

GripHoldOn · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject:

I like how you played the hand. Many players would have moved all-in before the flop, but you, whether your meant to or not, executed what is called the 'stop and go' play. You made your opponent committ a number of chips before the flop, and then you put him to a decision by making an all-in move after the flop. If you move all-in and he calls, he gets to see all five cards to try and pair an overcard, but in this manner, he only was alotted three cards to try and beat you. Tournament poker is all about winning what's in the middle in marginal situations. Winning a slightly smaller pot by having him fold after missing a K 9 4 flop is still better than losing to an A or Q on the river.

twriter · Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject:

That's part of what I was thinking: I wanted him to have the decision to make, not me. I have found that selective aggressiveness in earlyier positions can cause players in later positions to make plays that they wouldn't have if they were first to act. In this case, I was sort of ambivalent about whether it was a good decision, although I was leeaning toward that it was, even if the result wasn't in my favor. And no matter what the result, I want to keep making as many good decisions as possible.

rebelkillaz · Pair Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Compton, CA

You made a great play and should be patting yourself on the back. It was just unlucky that he happened to be holding a Q.

Stray · High Card Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 3

yeah it was unfortunate. 6 outs and he caught one. oh well you know what they say..... JJ is a high low pair or a low high pair. I wouldve gone all in, but you did make the right move. nice.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:09 am Post subject:

Jacks aren't strong enough to get fancy.

I would have gone all-in before the flop, wanting to win the pot right there, but not sweating too much if 1 player called me.

With only 3 times the blinds and antes, there are only 2 plays, folding, and moving all-in. Some people might just raise, or call, then go all-in on the flop regardless, or worse, fold Sad

So just go all-in pre-flop.

However, with AA, I'd probably just raise, wanting more than one player in the pot with me.

You wanted him to have a tough decision to make; instead, you ended up with the tough decision.

Don't worry though; you would have lost that hand no matter what. He probably would have called your all-in. But at least you left having the best hand pre-flop.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

I'm not sure about going all in with JJ preflop. If you get called, you're either a huge dog to a bigger pair, or, in the best case scenario, in a race situation against something like AK. JJ should, I think, be played like a middle pair, not a big pair.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:08 pm Post subject: Re:

Billy Butlins · Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject:

I suppose it depends on your preference on whether you want to test luck or not. If you'd gone all-in preflop then you're going to either steal the blinds and antes giving you a handsome sum anyway or call and as Grip said commit them to the pot. Commiting them can get you more money but there's also that element of risk for your opponent hitting something.

zipman · Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: It Depends

Although this may seem an easy decision, the answer is not that cut and dry. In fact, the answer should have been, it depends....

There is still a good bit of information not provided that is necessary before formulating a decision. I have a few questions that I would like you to answer before I tell you what I think would have been the best path to take.

Of the remaining players to act, which one called? (Cutoff, the button, SB or BB?)
What was the chip stack of the remaing players?
What had been the average preflop raise? (2xbb, 3xbb, pot, etc...)
How had the remaining players been playing? (weak/tight, loose/passive)
How long were the rounds and how long before the next level? (not to mention what the next level was)
What were the starting chips and were there rebuys?
Was your stack above or below average?
When your opponent called preflop, what range of hands did you put him/her on?

You said you put in a pot sized raise by making it 1500 to go. To make a pot sized raise, you must first call the 600 and then raise an additional 2100. That would have been a commitment of 2700; more than half your stack leaving you roughly 2K.

As it stands, you called the 600 and raised 900 or 1.5xbb. Now your opponent only has to pay 1500 for a shot at a 3K pot or 2:1 pot odds (which is more than what he needs to race you for a coinflip). Of course, the SB and the BB get a discount and are actually getting much better odds to call this baby raise.

Im going to make an assumption that the starting chips were 1000 without rebuys. This puts 136K in play and with 60 left, avg stacks are in excess of 20K which puts you at the bottom end of the spectrum. Chances are your raise represented 10% or less of their respective stack and with the exception of the SB and BB, you are out of position.

Hopefully you remember enough to answer the above questions. Many people will say that with roughly 8xbb left you are pot committed. As it stands, you hand wrote an invitation for the larger stacks to call and see the flop cheaply and putting very little of their stack at risk in an effort to build their stack (goal #1) and eliminate another player (goal #2).

Short Stacks are not in a position to try and get fancy. Im looking forward to your answers.

BTW, where was this tournament and what was the buy in?

Glad to see you make the jump from online to B&M.

Zip

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

Hmm, I missed that he had enough for less than 3 more rounds. In such a situation, he really had no choice but to go all in with the jacks. However, he probably should have done it pre-flop. In such a situation, seeing something like pocket jacks (my least favorite hand in all of poker) is about as good as you can hope for. Sorry!

iuz the old · Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:30 am Post subject:

I like JJs ( my least fave hand is AQ ) and love the stop and go stategy as has been said it puts two decisions to your opponent . However when your stack is that low winning the blinds and antes is critical and while doubling up may actually be more important right now - first things first - you may need to push here IMO.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

I don't think jacks are a limping hand, just to clarify. They're definately a raising hand. That said, they're a raising hand with which you should be quite happy to take down the pot preflop. I think you should probably have moved in preflop, but the stop and go play you managed to execute is not a bad alternative. The only problem was that you were short stacked to start.

	Full Tilt Poker is licensed by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. © Copyright 2004 - 2005 FullTiltPoker.com., All Rights Reserved