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tha_enemy
High Card
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 2
Location: san francisco
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 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: WPT: DID I GET SCREWED? |
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A few weeks ago I entered a WPT super sattelite at Bay 101. With three tables left, I found myself the overall chip leader. In a run of bad luck Q-Q, A-A, A-K, & 8-8 all lost..and I became the short stack.
I still felt I had a chance for one of the five seats we were playing for (3X$10,000 and 2X$2,000)...if I re-focussed and played solid.
I found 9-9 in the BB w/$18,000 behind when the small blind announce "I raise". We were heads up. He asked "how much to raise" and then flipped his hand up and said, 'that's ok you win." Since he was displaying J-7 hearts, I called the floor for a decision.
The floorman ruled he had to raise, his hand was live, and he would receive a 10 minute penalty. Correcdt me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a dead hand according to the TDA rules?
I pushed all in, he called the raise, and rivered a Jack and I was out #11...I think the hand shoulv'e been dead and I get all the chips. Oh well I'll try again  |
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Richman8802
Four of a Kind
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 291
Location: Detroit, MI
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Unless the hand was pushed in the muck, then the hand IS live |
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reissmgr
Full House
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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at a live tourney i saw something like this happen, the player showed his hole cards while there was still a lot of play in the hand, i think it was right after the flop. the player had obviously not experienced much time in live casino games, and i am not sure whether he just short-circuited or did it on purpose, he just showed his cards without announcing an action. Pit bosses and the director came over and announced the hand was dead and that the player had committed a violation of play by showing his hole cards with action yet to be played out in the hand, receiving a ten minute penalty. it was heads-up (in this particular hand, not down to heads-up in the tourney), and the other player involved in this hand received the pot.
so yes, i believe that going by most tourney rules and by what you described you got screwed, he showed his cards in the middle of hand, he should have received a penalty with his hand being dead, and you should have gone on. At the very least, if it was determined he declared an action before showing his cards, it should have been interpreted to mean he mucked. |
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Steve Brecher
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: WPT: DID I GET SCREWED? |
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| tha_enemy wrote: |
| isn't this a dead hand according to the TDA rules? |
No: "35. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed."
The TDA rules are available on many web sites. See Google. |
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Otto410
Royal Flush
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 850
Location: The Land Of Pleasant Living
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: Re: WPT: DID I GET SCREWED? |
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| tha_enemy wrote: |
I found 9-9 in the BB w/$18,000 behind when the small blind announce "I raise". We were heads up. He asked "how much to raise" and then flipped his hand up and said, 'that's ok you win." |
Mr. Brecher: What about Rule 30:
"Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Action out of turn may be binding." The player's verbal declaration of "that's ok, you win" to me would indicate a verbal declaration of a fold. Especially coupled with his action of turning over his cards. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: Re: WPT: DID I GET SCREWED? |
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| Otto410 wrote: |
| tha_enemy wrote: |
I found 9-9 in the BB w/$18,000 behind when the small blind announce "I raise". We were heads up. He asked "how much to raise" and then flipped his hand up and said, 'that's ok you win." |
Mr. Brecher: What about Rule 30:
"Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Action out of turn may be binding." The player's verbal declaration of "that's ok, you win" to me would indicate a verbal declaration of a fold. Especially coupled with his action of turning over his cards. |
This doesn't matter, as cards speak to determine the winner of the hand in a showdown. The "you win" may be interpreted as saying "I call, but my hand is so bad that I'll almost certainly lose." |
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Steve Brecher
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Re: WPT: DID I GET SCREWED? |
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| Otto410 wrote: |
What about Rule 30:
"Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Action out of turn may be binding." The player's verbal declaration of "that's ok, you win" to me would indicate a verbal declaration of a fold. Especially coupled with his action of turning over his cards. |
The first verbal declaration was "I raise." The floorman correctly ruled that was binding.
The reason that the first declaration or action is binding is to prevent players making a declaration/action, gauging the physical reaction of opponents, and then changing the play based on the reaction. |
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reissmgr
Full House
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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sorry if i was wrong in misinterpreting the lay of the hand and not realizing tourney rules differed on this subject, but the two casinos that have tourneys i frequent and various home tourneys all have a rule spelled out just like this:
19. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, that hand may be ruled dead and the player penalized. |
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Otto410
Royal Flush
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 850
Location: The Land Of Pleasant Living
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: WPT: DID I GET SCREWED? |
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| Steve Brecher wrote: |
The reason that the first declaration or action is binding is to prevent players making a declaration/action, gauging the physical reaction of opponents, and then changing the play based on the reaction. |
I with you here. SB would be force to put in at least a minimum raise due to his verbal "I raise." My question is that his second verbal declaration would be interpreted (at least by me) as a fold.
Thus, I would argue the hand should play out as such.
1. Due to SB's "I raise" declaration, he would be force to put in the minimum raise.
2. Because SB then announced "that's ok, you win" and flipped his card face up -- I would argue that he is conceding the pot and folding.
3. the_enemy would then win the pot with the extra raise as SB is forced to comply with BOTH of his verbal declarations. |
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dkgojackets
Straight Flush
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: Re: |
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| reissmgr wrote: |
sorry if i was wrong in misinterpreting the lay of the hand and not realizing tourney rules differed on this subject, but the two casinos that have tourneys i frequent and various home tourneys all have a rule spelled out just like this:
19. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, that hand may be ruled dead and the player penalized. |
I agree with how it played out. Technically, if his comment is interpreted to "I fold" then he would have been acting out of turn, folding while it was your turn to act. Therefore it was correctly ruled that his hand was live. |
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