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MrRockSolid
Straight
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 109
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 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: Suited Connectors |
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Over the last few days i've been looking into suited connectors and doing a fair amount of research on the web, I used to fold 4  5 to a raise of 3 times and a call, call but with 3 players already in the pot I will now, after my new findings play these hands.
Lets take A  K  against our 4 5 how well do you think it does heads up against this monster A K ? Would you give yourself a 20% chance to win or maybe a little more?
The actual % you have on beating A K with 4 5 is 41.7%, are you suprised? I know i was when i found out.
How about 2 more hands A  Q ..K Q vs our 4 5 who is favourite to win? K Q is 20.7% A Q is 39.7% and our 4 5 is behind A Q by a fraction with a 38.6% chance to win.
I'm not saying call a raise and a reraise on your suited connectors BUT don't auto muck these hands just because someone raised 3xs the big blind and 1 or 2 players have called thinking "wow these guys all have great hands i'm beat."
One area they don't do well is against bigger pocket pairs or cards that are close to your suited connectors for eg if someone has 6 7 against our 4 5 there cards are hindering our straight chances so our outs for hitting a straight decrease.
I will need to hit at least 2 pair, flush draw, straight draw or trips/fullhouse to continue after the flop so this makes playing suited connectors very easy to play post flop because if I have bottom or middle pair I can fold to a bet.
In fact only yesterday I had 6 7 in late position when someone raised 3xs the big blind one guy to my right also called so i decided to call the flop came down 6 7 3 and the initial raiser bet the pot, 2nd guy folded I raised he went all in on J J thinking it was a perfectly harmless flop....I then got some abuse from him saying "Wow noob you called my raise on that trash?"
One more thing i should mention is the lower suited connectors do have more chance of winning because people play high cards and the further away your suited connector is from another card that could hinder your straight draw the better BUT and its a BIG BUT I won't play the really low connectors like 2 3 , 3 4 simply because there's less chance either side to make a straight so the lowest i will play is 4 5
If I play 2 3 I can only make a straight with an A 4 5 6 combination if i play 4 5 i can make a straight with A 2 3 6 7 8 combination so i have 8 more outs for a straight.
Have a play with the odds calculator below, have fun and remember your suited connectors are not an auto fold 
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas_holdem
Darren.
Last edited by MrRockSolid on Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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StevieWard
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 1561
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Thats quite an interesting post and very informative.
Only thing I would add is, even though your 45 has a good chance against hands like AK etc, things are still a lot different when you actually play it post flop. If you hit bottom pair with your 4 and your opponent c-bets (whilst having AK at this point and your not sure what exactly he has), its a pretty tough call, or you may call to at least see a turn....if the turn comes a blank to him and he fires again, with there still being over cards to the board it makes it quite tough to call with your pair of 5's/4's.
I only ever call these for draw possibilities, I tend to not get too attached to making a pair with them. I usually fold all these hands in the blinds or OOP unless I have 108s or 910s i'm a bit more willing to give it a go, or if I open with a raise with one of them.
I may consider playing 4/5 a bit more the next time I play some games just to see how I get on. |
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ManilaDog
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 3971
Location: Brockton Ma and Republic Of Philippines
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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i dont disagree with anything said...................but I would caution " beginners".Phil Gordon has a Tip from The Pros about this,that I would urge beginers to read.I dont know if his ideas are here or on ESPN.......Ill try to find the link,in the morning.Ok,found it.
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tip/PhilGordon/130 |
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UFO1947
Alien Interrogator
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 3322
Location: NS, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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nice post Rock, I have been trying to work suited connecters into my cash game abit, however I was wondering if you could shed some light on POST flop play.
right now I treat it like med-low pocket pairs, if I miss (or don't hit picture perfect) it's a check fold. |
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MrRockSolid
Straight
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Yes i think to treat the suited connectors like medium/low pocket pairs is correct, I'm not looking to flop a single pair with my 7 8 but if the flop comes 8 4 5 and I have a gut shot (Inside straight), possible 2 pair or trips ie 9 outs then its like chasing a flush draw in terms of outs so I may carry on to a half pot bet if my stack is deep enough because if i hit theres a good chance i will have the best hand at the river.
A lot of times a preflop raiser will make a continuation bet at the flop even if they miss and then check the turn if they get called so you could also bluff them out of the pot at the turn even if you miss. 
But yes i don't get too attached to them if i dont hit big or have a big draw so this makes playing them as easy as medium/low pocket pairs and to have easy decisions post flop is what poker is all about.
How many times have i called a raise on A Q only to see a flop like A 4 7 and lost all my chips to trips or AK and even A7 suited, at least you shouldn't have a difficult decision with suited connectors most of the time. 
Darren. |
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Camby24
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 1846
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I think this is a great post and a great conversation piece so at the very least i wanted to give it a little BUMP!!! i agree with everything that has been said about the suited connectors and would also like to add that in addition to being a higher percentage hand than i had thought compared to big slick, it is also great because it is a farely easy hand to get rid of if the flop doesnt workout!!!! |
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Totes2Techs
Full House
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Playing these hands PF opens up so many possibilities and as shown in MrRocks example, when you hit, it's usually very well concealed and easy to get pretty good value out of. It's even better if you can get in cheap with others in the pot ahead of you because of both the current pot odds and the implied odds should you hit. I love playing 10 Js because it offers the widest range of help cards/outs and both ends of the straight are the nuts. After that, playing A2-A5 suited is great because of the nut flush implications. However, I've seen people as well as myself flop an A and get sucked into playing it only to be outkicked, so there is some danger there if you have a hard time not getting attached to your cards. You have to be able to let it go if you don't connect solidly. That's why they're called speculation hands. You speculated. The mine was empty. Put down your pick and move on to the next one.
Also, don't forget that when playing 4c5c and the like, your opponent 2 seats down from you could be playing 6c7c up to KcAc. So if you flop the flush, don't get overly happy.....or you could ride that 2nd best flush all the way home. Same with flopping a straight. Don't lose track of higher straights that might be or become possible on later streets. Pay attention to the board and read it thoroughly to make sure you're not sitting on the 10 h str8 and your neighbor has the Jh in the hole.
Lastly, I only play suited connectors or small PP's in MP3, CO or Btn and I'll call a raise in front of me with PP's ans someone still to act behind me, but I'll throw away connectors with players still to act behind me. It's also good to raise these PF occasionally to vary your betting pattern, as well as to build a pot w PP's when you do hit.
Great post Darren. Funny thing is that when I was reading your post, I was reading it in your voice with your accent! LOL Thanks for the great vids...now I have a voice to go with the text. |
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brookeandkyara
Pair
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| So I am wondering how many times you get caught playing these suited connectors with the second best hand??? Meaning EP open raises for 3x gets one caller and you call from the button with 56s. The flop comes down 56Q rainbow and you look golden, right??? Only to find out when all your chips go in you are way behind. Open raiser flopped top set and you are stuck. Is this a cooler that does not happen enough??? I personally have made quite a bit of money on these types of hands. I also do not overvalue top pair or even an overpair as much. I am curious to know some of your numbers on something like two pair to top set. Thanks |
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Totes2Techs
Full House
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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If you read the Phil Gordon post that was linked above, you'll see that he discusses these types of risks. There is always a gamble playing these types of hands and that's why he says that "beginners" shouldn't play them. I think that's a little extreme, but then again, why should I second guess someone like Phil Gordon.
For me personally, I don't play them frequently enough to put myself in that position often and I usually only play them in position or with good relative position to the bettor and I let them go unless I caught them solidly. Plus, noone should be thinking that 2 pair is the best hand in the world, so you should use your knowledge of the people you're playing against and the texture of the board to make your best decision. If you get caught w 2 pair by a set.....what are you going to do? Though you're absolutely right about this, I've found that it helps me to vary my play just enough so that my pretty tight image won't kill me and cause people to just fold out as much when I bet. It also allows me to semi bluff more, which can add valuable chips to your stack when people fold with a better hand. I don't know if this makes up for the times when you do run into that set, higher 2 pair, higher flush or str8, but so far it has only seemed to help my game.
I don't have any stats on these but maybe Darren or others do. It would be interesting to see what they might be. |
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UFO1947
Alien Interrogator
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 3322
Location: NS, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Totes2Techs wrote: |
If you read the Phil Gordon post that was linked above, you'll see that he discusses these types of risks. There is always a gamble playing these types of hands and that's why he says that "beginners" shouldn't play them. I think that's a little extreme, but then again, why should I second guess someone like Phil Gordon.
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Phil Gordon is a Pro I respect. However he seems to come off as someone who doesn't like to take any risks.
Suited Connecters are for people who don't want to play just the top ten hands. you become very predictable. |
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ManilaDog
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 3971
Location: Brockton Ma and Republic Of Philippines
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| UFO1947 wrote: |
| Totes2Techs wrote: |
If you read the Phil Gordon post that was linked above, you'll see that he discusses these types of risks. There is always a gamble playing these types of hands and that's why he says that "beginners" shouldn't play them. I think that's a little extreme, but then again, why should I second guess someone like Phil Gordon.
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Phil Gordon is a Pro I respect. However he seems to come off as someone who doesn't like to take any risks.
Suited Connecters are for people who don't want to play just the top ten hands. you become very predictable. |
i didnt post the link to discourage people from playing them ( I play them ) just to offer the opinion of a player that writes well at times. |
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kngspdd
Straight
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 119
Location: In the Ozarks
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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In fact only yesterday I had 6 7 in late position when someone raised 3xs the big blind one guy to my right also called so i decided to call the flop came down 6 7 3 and the initial raiser bet the pot, 2nd guy folded I raised he went all in on J J thinking it was a perfectly harmless flop....I then got some abuse from him saying "Wow noob you called my raise on that trash?"
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| Quote: |
Phil Gordon is a Pro I respect. However he seems to come off as someone who doesn't like to take any risks.
Suited Connecters are for people who don't want to play just the top ten hands. you become very predictable. |
I can see why people get upset when someone makes a call with suited connecters to a 3Xs BB bet , I think UFO said it right. People who play the top ten hands are usually the ones who get upset about these kind of calls. I like suited connecters because of the fact that players like that will never put you on a hand like that. It's the same reason I sometimes call with a small or mid pocket pair in hopes of flopping a hard to detect set.They think that you must obviosly have something big to be calling, which usually makes the situation much more profitable when you do out flop them. Alot of people have a one track mind about what hands to play, which is why I like to take a flop with my suited connecters. Of course it doesn't always work out , but like people have said in this thread, it is usually fairly easy to get away if it doesn't. Playing only huge hands can get you in trouble because it's sometimes too hard to get away, and you do become predictable. I am not saying that I don't play my big hands, but I do agree that suited connecters are a little easier to play. I think this was a great thread and I think adding a few suited connecters to your arsenal is worth it if you want to keep your opponents guessing. |
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MrRockSolid
Straight
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| brookeandkyara wrote: |
| So I am wondering how many times you get caught playing these suited connectors with the second best hand??? Meaning EP open raises for 3x gets one caller and you call from the button with 56s. The flop comes down 56Q rainbow and you look golden, right??? Only to find out when all your chips go in you are way behind. Open raiser flopped top set and you are stuck. Is this a cooler that does not happen enough??? I personally have made quite a bit of money on these types of hands. I also do not overvalue top pair or even an overpair as much. I am curious to know some of your numbers on something like two pair to top set. Thanks |
I haven't been playing them to a raise all that long so no concrete info on this yet, however it can also work the other way round e.g. Yesterday 3 players left in the SB i raised 3xs with 7 6 and got called by the BB...flop came 7 K 6 i bet the pot he went all in!! he had K 9 so thought his top pair was good.......it was when a 9 came at the river 
Darren. |
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Cattivo
Straight
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| MrRockSolid wrote: |
| ...it was when a 9 came at the river |
There's another reason I only play these hands in position and with pot-odds. Too many opportunities to get counterfeited, lose to higher pairs, or to be outkicked. Like everyone has been saying, it's good to play these to switch your play up every now and again, but be conscious of these risks during the hand. |
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