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Torlin
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: big blind play with idiots |
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| when i play low stakes limit i always find myself calling from the big blind with hands like 10-2 off and even 2-7 off cause it always seems that there wil be just one raiser and AT LEAST 1 caller, usually more. Now, I think that i'm getting the right pot odds (not taking into consideration implied odds or implied losses). My question is, am i wrong about this? |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3479
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes you are wrong about this. It's pretty spewie.
You shouldn't really be considering whether you are getting the correct odds w/hands like this. They don't play well heads up or multi way and generally have no showdown value. They almost never flop well enough that you can get any real value from them when they are the winner.
For now, play the SB/BB as you would UTG, but even tighter(atleast in the SB). |
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Torlin
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| what if there are say 5 limpers and i'm the sb? so I'm getting 13/1 on a call with 2-7? would this change with no-limit play? |
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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| For now, play the SB/BB as you would UTG, but even tighter(atleast in the SB). |
Well, if you are a brand new holdem player, i might agree with this. But it could be a little extreme.
With that being said, Z still has it right. Do not defend BB or SB with trash even with good "preflop odds." (I quote that because the statement can be way overrated). These odds are not a good reason to play trash, because, as Z said, they do not have good value even when they hit the board. Are you going to be able to value bet a pair of 7s all the way to the river with 27? How about two pair on a juicy board with the T2? |
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eyoraces
Two Pair
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 65
Location: hooterville
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| if you look in the mirror and see buck teeth and big ears that pretty much says it all |
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sloshedzeus
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 1257
Location: The birthplace of NASCAR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| He is Bugs Bunny? |
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eyoraces
Two Pair
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 65
Location: hooterville
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| francis the poker playin mule |
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Torlin
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mathman1115 wrote: |
| Zophar wrote: |
| For now, play the SB/BB as you would UTG, but even tighter(atleast in the SB). |
Well, if you are a brand new holdem player, i might agree with this. But it could be a little extreme.
With that being said, Z still has it right. Do not defend BB or SB with trash even with good "preflop odds." (I quote that because the statement can be way overrated). These odds are not a good reason to play trash, because, as Z said, they do not have good value even when they hit the board. Are you going to be able to value bet a pair of 7s all the way to the river with 27? How about two pair on a juicy board with the T2? |
but i don't think that you would have to get any additional value out of the hand. I really think that if you were able to check it down then it would have been worthwile |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3479
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Torlin wrote: |
| mathman1115 wrote: |
| Zophar wrote: |
| For now, play the SB/BB as you would UTG, but even tighter(atleast in the SB). |
Well, if you are a brand new holdem player, i might agree with this. But it could be a little extreme.
With that being said, Z still has it right. Do not defend BB or SB with trash even with good "preflop odds." (I quote that because the statement can be way overrated). These odds are not a good reason to play trash, because, as Z said, they do not have good value even when they hit the board. Are you going to be able to value bet a pair of 7s all the way to the river with 27? How about two pair on a juicy board with the T2? |
but i don't think that you would have to get any additional value out of the hand. I really think that if you were able to check it down then it would have been worthwile |
Mathman, this is why I went to that extreme.
Torlin, it will not be checked down. OK, maybe 1 in 100 will be. You will be spewing money in the short run and long run. |
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Torlin
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
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I just found this in a pro chat with chris ferguson
QUESTION FROM SuperX2332: When is it okay to complete the small blind?
ANSWER FROM Chris Ferguson: Always! you can fold to the big blind sometimes if no one else is in. |
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griffinlord
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 2454
Location: The Great Plains of South Dakota
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Torlin wrote: |
I just found this in a pro chat with chris ferguson
QUESTION FROM SuperX2332: When is it okay to complete the small blind?
ANSWER FROM Chris Ferguson: Always! you can fold to the big blind sometimes if no one else is in. |
Was this actually a limit question?
I know that I will limp the SB quite a bit in NL because there are some implied odds. But in limit? I fold pretty easily.
You are out of position and in limit you have no way to effectively bluff your opponent off a weak hand or a draw....especially if you are getting 13-1 preflop.
The 7-2 example is a great one. If you are all in preflop and getting 13-1 then you are getting about the right odds for the 7-2. But if there is more betting to come, and in limit there will be, you absolutely have to hit the flop hard to continue otherwise you need to fold. So, with more betting to come, you'd need something like 25-1 preflop to make it worth your time to play 7-2. Easy fold.
The other problem with junk hands in the blinds is the possibility of being out kicked. I cannot count the number of times that I have some piece of garbage in the BB and it gets limped to me. I catch top pair with bad kicker on the flop and now what? If I actually have the best hand and bet there are too many folks with odds to call with over cards, never mind the risk of someone having top pair with a better kicker.
Oh, sure, every once-in-a-while you catch a miracle on the flop and actually win a biggish pot....but not often enough to justify routinely playing garbage.
I start with Zophar's advice--play way nitty tight from the SB until you are a much stronger player. If you have a hand that you don't feel comfortable raising, just muck and wait for the next hand.
If you aren't getting enough action and feel like playing some cheap hands from the SB maybe switch over to the 6-max games. You should still be pretty tight in the SB, but with only six players at the table you get a lot more action so you don't need to play crap in order to play. |
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Torlin
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thx, that actually makes a lot of sense. The other two just seemed to be like "you're a retard blah blah blah" without really explaining it properly. |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Defending the Big Blind
Sklansky and Malmuth suggest defending with 40% of all hands, and reraising with the top quarter of those, based on the idea that this calling/raising strategy neutralizes the preflop advantage of raising 100% of the time from the small blind. I propose that this advice is too passive. Furthermore, the percentage of hands played should be fluid, based on the competition's play after the flop as well as preflop.
Before going any further, let's repeat the authors definition of playable hands, counting up to 40%. "Any pair, any ace, any other two cards that are both nine or higher, any other straight flush combination with no gaps or just one gap (except for 42s and 32s), and any king little suited. (You might add in a few more hands such as J8s, 98, or 97.)"
Many beginning players might wonder how to figure out that these holdings represent 40% of all possible hands. It is possible to double-check the authors' work by reviewing the number of combinations of each holding. Since there are 1326 possible 2-card combinations, a hand like AA, which can be made six different ways, represents (6/1326) of all possible starting hands. In percentages, this equates to ~0.45% of all hands, or about 220:1. Two cards of unknown suits can be combined sixteen different ways, while a suited hand is only formed with four possibilities (e.g. AK, AK, AK, AK). One resource for an aspiring player who is truly interested in learning the fundamental probabilities is Hold'em's Odds Book by Mike Petriv. |
Found here http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/jason-pohl04.htm |
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