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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4115
Location: ROK
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| thomsen6 wrote: |
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| You missed the part where I explained to you that you win over 4 times that much by putting the money in on 6th. |
Thats not true! In that case he can only win 140 more in case his Kings are good, and that is not 4times more. In case his Kings are the best hand, he will have lost a bet of 140 if it is checked down on river. But it in case that his Kings are losers 50.1% of the time, and we all know they are, he will save money if he can check it down on the river.
Your statement is based on HERO folding because he believes his Kings are beat, but I never mentioning fold. Of course he has to put in the last 140 on river if VILLAIN bets. But if VILLAIN checks it is correct to take that option and check behind. |
My point was that as Strasse said the money is always going in the pot against this player. The advantage of getting it on 6th street in this case instead of the river is that he knows he still has equity in the hand. If it waits until 7th street to get it in then he could have 0% equity in which case he always loses the whole 140. You can't be sure which portion of his chips he will get back based on the player and how often they bet or check different hands so that calculation is impossible and irrelevant. Getting it in on 6th he still has a guaranteed portion of those chips coming back to him plus equity in the rest of the pot.
I know equity calculations must be a bit foreign to you at this point but telling me that getting in on the turn is the wrong play without proper math supporting it is really just wasting your time. |
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inabunnysuit
Pair
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like it on 3rd st.
Stating the obvious -> Split kings is a trouble hand. You're always out of position unless they catch an A or pair up and you hate both in this game.
That being said, the fact that it's worth playing is what makes it trouble. It's a little hard to believe that all the looseness that followed was a total shock to you. Thus, call on 3rd and wait for 4th to check, planning to raise if the board came nice (like it did) or fold (if it came ugly).
You have 700 chips, just under the steal line. This argues for the isolation play against an apparently worse high hand. But if the players behind you are solid, what do you do if reraised (where you're never in good shape and rarely in decent shape)? If they're loose, why make the pot bigger early in the hand?
Looks like you made a cash play in a tournament. I don't mind putting it in on 6th, even though Ts and 6s is looking pretty likely (so maybe you fold and save the 300, but it's between raising and folding). How many players, how far out of the money, etc. ?
Oh yeah, the bet on 5th st. I don't like it. Check with the intention of calling (but expecting a check behind). Check, because you're already heads up and whether he has 1 pair or a low draw, he will call you for value (after your bet there's ~1100 in there). Call, because he called 2 cold on 3rd with an 8 in the door and another low card calling 2 cold in front of him (that is to say, made 1 really stupid play already this hand, unless he's got wired aces or 75). If he bets, he's got some kind of high hand, proabaly 1 pair, but maybe the 5 (4?) out OESD + low draw (maybe trips, rolled up or even wired 6s or Ts explains his hand ok).
Hummmm....... OK, how's this? In split poker, the main goal is to scoop. Kings scoop in stud 8/b when no one makes a low and no one outdraws you for high. Avoid putting chips in until you know the ifs and whichs.
Finally, TPFAP, p. 46 'Keeping the pot small' |
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Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 3592
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| inabunnysuit wrote: |
I don't like it on 3rd st.
Stating the obvious -> Split kings is a trouble hand. You're always out of position unless they catch an A or pair up and you hate both in this game.
That being said, the fact that it's worth playing is what makes it trouble. It's a little hard to believe that all the looseness that followed was a total shock to you. Thus, call on 3rd and wait for 4th to check, planning to raise if the board came nice (like it did) or fold (if it came ugly).
You have 700 chips, just under the steal line. This argues for the isolation play against an apparently worse high hand. But if the players behind you are solid, what do you do if reraised (where you're never in good shape and rarely in decent shape)? If they're loose, why make the pot bigger early in the hand?
Looks like you made a cash play in a tournament. I don't mind putting it in on 6th, even though Ts and 6s is looking pretty likely (so maybe you fold and save the 300, but it's between raising and folding). How many players, how far out of the money, etc. ?
Oh yeah, the bet on 5th st. I don't like it. Check with the intention of calling (but expecting a check behind). Check, because you're already heads up and whether he has 1 pair or a low draw, he will call you for value (after your bet there's ~1100 in there). Call, because he called 2 cold on 3rd with an 8 in the door and another low card calling 2 cold in front of him (that is to say, made 1 really stupid play already this hand, unless he's got wired aces or 75). If he bets, he's got some kind of high hand, proabaly 1 pair, but maybe the 5 (4?) out OESD + low draw (maybe trips, rolled up or even wired 6s or Ts explains his hand ok).
Hummmm....... OK, how's this? In split poker, the main goal is to scoop. Kings scoop in stud 8/b when no one makes a low and no one outdraws you for high. Avoid putting chips in until you know the ifs and whichs.
Finally, TPFAP, p. 46 'Keeping the pot small' |
Ok, your advice is bad. I should NOT check 5th in this spot ever. Why in the hell should I give him a free card once the bets get big? I should charge him for his low draw. I'm not folding a pair of kings when I am that short stacked, I simply can't wait forever for a better hand. Also, its between raising and folding? What the hell are you smoking? I am never ever considering a fold in this spot. Finally, wtf is TPFAP? The only thing I can think of is Theory of Poker for Advanced Players, but that is not a book. |
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sloshedzeus
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 1239
Location: The birthplace of NASCAR
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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I do see one mistake you made. You stated, "Any comments welcome though" in your OP. You never said they had to be correct.
There was no way the chips were not going in the pot with the way the hand played out. You played it as well as you could have, too bad that it is not always enough. |
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Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 3592
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| sloshedzeus wrote: |
I do see one mistake you made. You stated, "Any comments welcome though" in your OP. You never said they had to be correct.
There was no way the chips were not going in the pot with the way the hand played out. You played it as well as you could have, too bad that it is not always enough. |
Yes, and I said that back in August when I wasn't sure if I played it right. However, now I am much more confident in my stud8 game, and can spot the idiot comments. |
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inabunnysuit
Pair
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Tournament Poker For Advanced Players, available in the full tilt store for 9100 points. You consider yourself one of the best players in the tournament, right? So your goal is to get the chips in when you have as much the best of it as they will give you. This means folding marginal hands and playing pot control. If you had called on 3rd and not gotten your cr on 4th, a bet on 5th is correct. Because the pot's half the size, a bet on 5th is correct (he should fold low draws without an A and 6s with a 4, 5 or 7). After all the bets got put in on 3rd, he has to call you with any pair or low draw. More importantly, you still have 3 bigs left. Even given the size on the pot, the die is by no means cast. You aren't tied to this hand. Checking on 5th gives him the opportunity to describe his hand. As the cards come, you should probably call for value on 6th (unlikely to have kings up beaten) and make a decision on 7th (would he bet a busted low draw, two small pair).
The free card thing is true in a cash game. In a tournament you have other things to consider. Like, not going broke. You give him a free card beacuse he has to call anyway without you knowing 1 jot more about his hand. If you check-call 5th and he pairs up on 6th there's a solid case to be made for folding. Not EVER checking 5th, not ever even considering a fold on 6th? Is this a read-thing ('this millet-head here's gonna show me QJ') or a strategy thing? Never fold because there're so many chips in the pot (including the implied, you're getting about 5-1 on your last 300, good explanations for you being beat worse than that exist (AA, 66, 88, 97)) or because it's a satillite and you feel the need to accumulate chips?
1. Status of the tournament - you look pretty far from the money. Indicates normal play.
2. Table is full. Normal play
3. I recognize a couple names and don't have the highest regard for all of them. We've only played a few hands together, but I like your chances. Indicates cautious play.
4. You've got about 5 rounds of antes and brings. Nearing critical strength, but not so short you can pick a hand and go. Indicates aggression.
5. Other stacks are much bigger than you, indicates caution (satillites are Jonesian, cash tournaments are Kelly-ian).
6. Silly aggression in front of you. Indicates aggression
7. A 4 brought and a 9 raised. 'A 9? This guys an idiot, I better get his money first.' Something like that?
8. 4 players behind you, indicates caution.
9. 225-80 on a call, leaving you with 620. Good odds, you should play.
10. Position will be sucky unless the boards get scary. Indicates caution.
11. You have split Ks in a split pot game. It's easy to trap yourself with this kind of marginal hand. Indicates caution.
I've got caution +2. So I don't like re-raising on 3rd. It's worse if the action is unlikely to deter someone else from getting into the pot. It's much worse if the action IS likely to deter them and 2 came anyway. 'The looseness should not surprise you' thing.
See where I'm coming from yet? If 3rd st. was a good play, you didn't listen to what they told you (by betting on 5th). If 3rd st. was a bad play ('Crap, I was frustrated and saw 2 kings and forgot these guys are nuts.'), then 5th was OK. I'm still not a fan of the bet on 5 as it is hard to get away from 5-1, and I'm afraid of commitment (so I hear).
This is why I don't like it on 3rd more than I don't like it on 5th or 6th ('cause when I read 'not ever consider folding', man I HATE that. You're only a better player if you play better.). You've still got time if you're willing to be patient. If he caught an A or an 8 on 5th, do you bet then? Do you call? I don't. I fold and take my 460 into the next hand because I don't feel 7-1 is enough (unless I'm feeling suicidal or have a strong read).
Just to make sure, if he raised you on 5th, you'd 3 bet, right? |
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Buzzbball06
High Card
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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