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pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: Razz is easy

I heard two tips somewhere that my entire razz game is based on. I think I play razz pretty well. I look forward to it in horse more than any other game.

1. "The best starting hand is usually not the winning hand."

The reason this is a great tip is that many who play razz online don't know that. They will bet even if their hand is obviously deteriorating into crap. I often hear them say at the end of the hand how well they started out, and how lucky I got.

Since you know that most of the time the best hand at the start does not win the pot, what sense would it make to "complete". It doesn't make sense, if you catch bad on the next card....everybody sees it, what are you gonna do then? Now if someone does "complete" at the outset, and you have a hand you can build from, go ahead and call. He may push hands out, and catch bad on the next card. Then you find yourself on the way to a nice pot.

2. "Play the players not your hand."

This might take some explaining, and can be criticized by players who have different styles, but this works for me. The core philosophy behind it is that 80% of razz players are fools, so here goes.

This tip is true for just about any poker game, but in razz, it is more so. In razz you know for certain 60% of what their hand consists of by the fifth card, and they know 60% of yours. From there it is a mental game.

The mind games

If I look stronger than the rest I will bet. Resistance tells me about their hole cards. I try to deduce (by their bet, and the cards they have showing), what is the best hand they have might be.

Setting it up.

Okay I normally start of with at least two cards seven or below. By the fifth card I know two things. How strong I am with two cards to go, and how strong they might be with two cards to go.

If I am stronger with the potential to get weaker(still need one more card to cinch the win) I will bet if they look weak, and call or check if they look good. If I am weak(two cards needed with two to go to cinch) I will check or fold.

Notice I put the word weaker in bold up there. Try to think that way in razz. When building a hand, it CAN get weaker. Hold em players have a hard time wrapping their mind around that, because in hold em your hand can only get stronger. The strength of your hand can go up or down on the next card. Hold em players need to realize that razz is played on a two way street, hold em is played on a one way street.

Now if I look great but am in bad shape in the hole, I may stick it out just to see one more betting round. If I catch what looks to be good, and they catch bad, I will bet with a bad hand to try and steal the pot.

I think a good razz player will make just as much with the second best hand as he can with the best hand. The trick is knowing when to stick around, and when to bet, and when to fold. You have to know what they are seeing in you, and reinforce their worst fears about the hand you might have.

Remember you can't scare anyone off if you look crappy on the outside. If your door is bad followed by another bad...fold it, because your bluffing opportunity is gone. Sure you might have an ace-two in the hole, but the odds of you getting three cards in a row, all low, are not good. And with two bads showing, you have no chance to scare them off either. Unless they catch bad the rest of the way, which won't happen.

Razz is an easy game, that many play horribly. Getting into a rhythm, and understanding that first tip will make a difference in your game. I may not be a pro, but in razz I have found a game I can confidently say I am good at.

Constructive criticism welcome.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 570

I heard two tips somewhere that my entire razz game is based on. I think I play razz pretty well. I look forward to it in horse more than any other game.

1. "The best starting hand is usually not the winning hand."

The reason this is a great tip is that many who play razz online don't know that. They will bet even if their hand is obviously deteriorating into crap. I often hear them say at the end of the hand how well they started out, and how lucky I got.

Since you know that most of the time the best hand at the start does not win the pot, what sense would it make to "complete".
[color=red]This is true in most cases, on starting hands you have no way of knowing if you will even have a hand by the 7th street. BUT, always complete if folded all the way around to you and the bring in man to your left, who should be showing a high card most times. By all means complete and take the antes while your hand is good. Also, if you are short stack and get a nice starting hand sometimes it may be in your best intrests to complete and get as much value out of your cards as possible, out or up so to speak.
Another thing you should thinka about, on your starting hand, you are good (say A 4 5 showing). two players before you have just brought in and they are showing 8 and 9 respectivally. complete the hand! they don't feel good about their hands and are trying to see a cheap 4th street, make em pay and increase value in case you do pull good draws.
Comlete and re-raise those that do not understand the game either, somone is in with you showing a 10 and no one esle is in then not only complete but attempt to raise if possible (with the understanding you are sitting on 7high on 3rd street and no [/color]pairs)
It doesn't make sense, if you catch bad on the next card....everybody sees it, what are you gonna do then? Now if someone does "complete" at the outset, and you have a hand you can build from, go ahead and call. He may push hands out, and catch bad on the next card. Then you find yourself on the way to a nice pot.

2. "Play the players not your hand."

This might take some explaining, and can be criticized by players who have different styles, but this works for me. The core philosophy behind it is that 80% of razz players are fools, so here goes.

This tip is true for just about any poker game, but in razz, it is more so. In razz you know for certain 60% of what their hand consists of by the fifth card, and they know 60% of yours. From there it is a mental game.

The mind games

If I look stronger than the rest I will bet. Resistance tells me about their hole cards. I try to deduce (by their bet, and the cards they have showing), what is the best hand they have might be.

Setting it up.

Okay I normally start of with at least two cards seven or below. By the fifth card I know two things. How strong I am with two cards to go, and how strong they might be with two cards to go.

If I am stronger with the potential to get weaker(still need one more card to cinch the win) I will bet if they look weak, and call or check if they look good. If I am weak(two cards needed with two to go to cinch) I will check or fold.

Notice I put the word weaker in bold up there. Try to think that way in razz. When building a hand, it CAN get weaker. Hold em players have a hard time wrapping their mind around that, because in hold em your hand can only get stronger. The strength of your hand can go up or down on the next card. Hold em players need to realize that razz is played on a two way street, hold em is played on a one way street.

Now if I look great but am in bad shape in the hole, I may stick it out just to see one more betting round. If I catch what looks to be good, and they catch bad, I will bet with a bad hand to try and steal the pot.
You must be careful, good razz players realize that if they complete a hand with say a 7 high, no matter how good you look on the board, they will stay in till the 7th. They may check and limit their potential oss if you look really strong, (most notable exception is on 6th street if you are showing a 2345, chances are you have the wheel in the minds of most opponents.) Hey, if on 6th I have a 7532A I am in till the end and I will call your bets (may fold if the above exception is on the board.) Say on the 6th I have A2 375K showing, and you have XX 763K showing, I am in with you all the way, I am thinking you are gonna be stuck with that 6 making your hand 76XXX and my 75 will win. Heck, I may raise you in this case. Mind games and show strength all you can, showing stregth and betting to that strength only works against A)players that are too tight to take a chance. B) players that don't understand that tossing the two worse showing cards on the board to give a good idea of where a player stands.
Against Players that chase till the cows go home... well, show strength but get them knocked out as quick as possible.

pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:38 am Post subject:

Thanks for the reply.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule in poker, and your first critique is one of them. When short stacked you almost have to play premium starting hands for all they are worth. Limping in or calling raises is not the right play to make at all there. My advice not to complete is for when you are in "good" shape chip stacked heavy or average. I have found I get deeper in razz tourney letting the other guys bet on the horses out of the gate, and I follow along to see what happens. If I begin to look bad, no big deal, I get out, if they look bad, I try to take the action from them down the stretch.

In your second critique..it's a wash really. Many times playing it the way I said your going to get caught with your pants down. Luckily there are few NL Razz games on here, and you should survive one close beat. The majority of the time in that situation I think you will either make your hand, or chase the other guy out. You will lose here and there, but its limit. You can afford to lose a few, just win a lot more than you lose.

You have things to consider though. Although like I said, by fifth, I am thinking of the best hand they could possibly have and how they respond to pressure. I also consider how they came into the hand, if there hand improved. How they responded if they caught a bad card. These things tell me a lot about their hole cards. I will race a guy to the finish line if I have 7 or lower most of the time, but like you said, I will watch out for the wheel too.

good feed back though.

pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:39 am Post subject:

DBL POST

pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:39 am Post subject:

TPL Post

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 570

Thanks pcola, don't get me wrong,
everything you said in your post is right on.

showing strength is always so much easier when you have strength in your hand.

yes One should be able to survive a bad beat or three :>). Tighten up when you get down in chips, maximize value when you are sure you can win.

One thing I love about razz, that is soooo rare in other games, there are times when you know for a fact that you cannot lose a hand. Some people cannot tell when that is.

BTW, what stakes do you play?
I would love to play some razz with you sometime, it is the only game I feel that I have a very good handle on (I am no pro but I believe I can hold my own).
Peace

pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:31 am Post subject:

supermicro right now. lol I am kidding myself by trying to get a twenty dollar BR from nothing. If this doesnt hapen over the next few months I will probably deposite again. Play lower limit SnGs then. 1-2 dollar buy ins. The freerolls are tough. I finished like 114th in one of those 100 dollar razz freeroll tourneys last night. Top 5% the way I see it, but needed 27th to cash, oh well, thats freerolling for ya. I am playing in the forum final horse saturday. Placed 3rd and 7th in the qualifier. See you at the tables.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 570

Cool pcola, i am in that too, mayhap we will meet on the table there.
GL to you.

I was able to build by BR playing RAzz. I took 5$ to the micro cash tables and turned it into 20. The next day I did it again.
Then for craps and giggles I played the 2K razz and cashed.
Played the 2K razz a few times, hit 177, hit 200+ and was off and running.

Razz is awesome.

Peace

silvar_shark · Three of a Kind Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 93

KronX · Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:45 am Post subject:

silvar_shark · Three of a Kind Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 93

KronX · Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:48 am Post subject:

The Razz freerolls have been good to me. Hopefully the same for you.

silvar_shark · Three of a Kind Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 93

Don T-Mac · Pair Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 39

The razz freerolls are the best to build a roll with. I've never seen so much dead money in a tournament in my life. If you just play the most basic ABC poker, you'll be cashing in those freerolls in no time. That's how I built my roll recently, too.

GL.

Don T-Mac · Pair Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 39

The razz freerolls are the best to build a roll with. I've never seen so much dead money in a tournament in my life. If you just play the most basic ABC poker, you'll be cashing in those freerolls in no time. That's how I built my roll recently, too.

GL.

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