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xone3d
High Card
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: Making a living at the microstakes limit holdem online |
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Hi,
is it possible to make a living at 0.50/1 and 1/2 stakes online and if so what would you reccommend as a good way to do it.
An eample of what i mean would be to say you play 4 tables at X/X stakes and play until you've made 1 times the amount you started with. Or maybe play 2 tables at X/X stakes and play for 6 hours a day?
I'm just researching what would be the best way to do this and if anyone would care to share how they go about it.
thanks |
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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 3085
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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The quick answer to your question is NO. Even if you played $1/2 for 8 hours a day and 4 tabled it, earning an average of 3 big bets per hour, thats a total of 3 BB x 8 hrs x 4 tables = 96 BB or $192 per day. Now, thats not a bad living, but remember 4 tables for 8 hours a day is a grind, and winning an average of 3 BB every hour, although possible, is very difficult. You would have to be an expert limit player. Even good limit players can struggle to earn even 1 BB per hour, which is usually the goal of the player.
The other problem is variance. You will not consistently win $192 per day even when you are playing your best game. You could go a whole week without winning a single day, and if the rent is due that week, you are in trouble. Remember that limit is a card oriented game (meaning, although all forms of poker require skill, limit is a card catching kind of game moreso than NL). A couple bad runs of cards and your whole plan can go to ****.
I guess i'm not exactly sure what you mean by "make a living," but i would not recommend limit 1/2 holdem as your only source of income.
If you are going to try it, in whatever aspect you wish, i suggest not setting limits each day in terms of wins and losses. Never play until you win so much or lose so much, because some days those limits will not be attained and you won't know when to stop. Your limits should be set by time, like 4 tables for 8 hours with 10 minute breaks each hour or something like that. |
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xone3d
High Card
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I could probably get away with $40 a day until I feel confident enough to move up the higher stakes.
My goal is to move up eventually but I would like to dedicate more time to playing poker. My current job leaves me no time or energy to improve my play in the evenings.
Do you think it's possible to make this amount at these stakes? |
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sohail
Pair
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Low limit ring games are a great way to build a bankroll. I would say it's next to impossible to make a living at it at the lowest level. The previous poster is correct about the math, but also, in the lower limits you'll find yourself trying to out draw someone gambling with crap. Which is fine until they suckout on you and leave. It's not like a casino where they usually stick around until they are broke. So, I would say it's great to build a bankroll with it, and be able to move up to the levels where it is possible to make a living at it. |
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griffinlord
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2459
Location: The Great Plains of South Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| xone3d wrote: |
| I could probably get away with $40 a day until I feel confident enough to move up the higher stakes. |
At $40/day and playing 360 days/year you are barely paying bills on a very cheap apartment while living on Raman. And 360 days per year is a lot of poker...I would figure about 300 days/year as a maximum--which is precious little time off.
| xone3d wrote: |
| My goal is to move up eventually but I would like to dedicate more time to playing poker. My current job leaves me no time or energy to improve my play in the evenings. |
I don't have nearly enough time to improve my game either....I've been at it for about 3 years now at around 10 hours/week and I think I'm finally getting the hang of it while at the tables (as opposed to theoretical knowledge). But as long as I keep getting better I'm okay with tiny monthly improvements.
There are several dangers in quitting your job to play poker, especially if you are not yet a substantially profitable player. Loss of food and shelter leap to mind pretty quickly.
The best advice I've ever heard about going pro is that you play poker recreationally until it costs you money to stop playing poker and go to work.
| xone3d wrote: |
| Do you think it's possible to make this amount at these stakes? |
Sure, but as I've already pointed out that isn't enough to call it a living. My kid earns more than $40/day at burger king.
For now keep working on your game. Build your bankroll as quickly as you are safely able to do so. When you get to the 5/10 games earning 1BB/100 hands is a good start. |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3462
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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the short answer to your question is "No, don't be silly."
The longer version is: You can't make enough, even through multitabling. I know a couple of guys on stars who play 3/6 and 5/10 for a living, but they play 6 tables at a time for 8 hours a day 5 days a week. It's not easy but it can be done at those limits, just. Oh and they're a couple of the best players at those limits with the highest winrates, so it's not like theyre donks missing value or anything, it just can't be done. |
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Rojogrande67
High Card
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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My goal in life would be to play 3-4 days a week and make enough to live comfortably and enjoy the other days when I choose not to play.
Note to self: It won't happen at those limits. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6431
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Dude like 99% of pros recommend that you never set out to become a pro.
Just play the game for fun, develop your skill, and treat it as a profitable hobby, or a part-time job. If you find that you start getting good enough that you're making more money than your real job, then you might consider it, but remember the swings can be devastating and many "pros" only last a few years before they either go broke or just go crazy from the stress.
And no you'll never ever make enough at 1/2 limit to live off of. Unless you live in a 2nd or 3rd world country. |
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MeCrazy
Royal Flush
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mathman1115 wrote: |
The quick answer to your question is NO. Even if you played $1/2 for 8 hours a day and 4 tabled it, earning an average of 3 big bets per hour, thats a total of 3 BB x 8 hrs x 4 tables = 96 BB or $192 per day. Now, thats not a bad living, but remember 4 tables for 8 hours a day is a grind, and winning an average of 3 BB every hour, although possible, is very difficult. You would have to be an expert limit player. Even good limit players can struggle to earn even 1 BB per hour, which is usually the goal of the player.
The other problem is variance. You will not consistently win $192 per day even when you are playing your best game. You could go a whole week without winning a single day, and if the rent is due that week, you are in trouble. Remember that limit is a card oriented game (meaning, although all forms of poker require skill, limit is a card catching kind of game moreso than NL). A couple bad runs of cards and your whole plan can go to ****.
I guess i'm not exactly sure what you mean by "make a living," but i would not recommend limit 1/2 holdem as your only source of income.
If you are going to try it, in whatever aspect you wish, i suggest not setting limits each day in terms of wins and losses. Never play until you win so much or lose so much, because some days those limits will not be attained and you won't know when to stop. Your limits should be set by time, like 4 tables for 8 hours with 10 minute breaks each hour or something like that. |
i have the answer, play 12 tables at a time? |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3462
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| MeCrazy wrote: |
| mathman1115 wrote: |
The quick answer to your question is NO. Even if you played $1/2 for 8 hours a day and 4 tabled it, earning an average of 3 big bets per hour, thats a total of 3 BB x 8 hrs x 4 tables = 96 BB or $192 per day. Now, thats not a bad living, but remember 4 tables for 8 hours a day is a grind, and winning an average of 3 BB every hour, although possible, is very difficult. You would have to be an expert limit player. Even good limit players can struggle to earn even 1 BB per hour, which is usually the goal of the player.
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i have the answer, play 12 tables at a time? |
You would hate poker within a week, and commit suicide within a month. I've had days where I've 6tabled for around 8 hours, and by the end of it my eyes had changed to a different shape. It's not something I could do on a regular basis, and my endurance is fairly strong.
Live players often play sessions of 48 hours or more, but they're playing less than half the amount of hands per hour that you play on 1 table online, so they arent forced into decisions every second. At a 6max table, playing 12 tables, I'd say you were forced to make a less-than-easy decision about your hand once every 4 seconds. Most people couldnt do that for 8 hours day after day, let alone make the correct decision most of the time. |
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ange_exalte
Royal Flush
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| So out of curiosity at what limit do you think you can make say 100$ a day? |
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griffinlord
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2459
Location: The Great Plains of South Dakota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| ange_exalte wrote: |
| So out of curiosity at what limit do you think you can make say 100$ a day? |
The lowest limit where that is meaningfully plausible on a regular basis is 3/6 but you would need to be averaging about 17BB/day. Two tabling for 8 hours you can do that if you are averaging about +1BB/100.
If you were in a low cost of living area this would allow you to live pretty modestly. But you could call it a living. |
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ange_exalte
Royal Flush
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| griffinlord wrote: |
| ange_exalte wrote: |
| So out of curiosity at what limit do you think you can make say 100$ a day? |
The lowest limit where that is meaningfully plausible on a regular basis is 3/6 but you would need to be averaging about 17BB/day. Two tabling for 8 hours you can do that if you are averaging about +1BB/100.
If you were in a low cost of living area this would allow you to live pretty modestly. But you could call it a living. |
I live in Vegas and my husband has a good 40 hour a week job. We play poker irl to supplement this income, however being a stay at home mom I am really getting into online poker as I can play for at least 40 hrs a week and I can clean and play with the kids and I will be busy so less tempted to play sub par hands, however it lowers my table limit to 2 at a time when I am doing stuff  I usually play NLHE irl but I am really getting into limit and wanted to know what level it becomes profitable  |
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MeCrazy
Royal Flush
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| limit is like doing math all day....but if you really got the odds down, its not going to have the swings of NL |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3462
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MeCrazy wrote: |
| limit is like doing math all day....but if you really got the odds down, its not going to have the swings of NL |
Firstly, I don't think the swings thing is accurate, some suggest that swings are bigger in LHE than NLHE as people often have the odds to chase their draws: http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/viewtopic.php?t=34812
Second, I don't think LHE is anything like as mathematical as NLHE. When you get to 100NL or 200NL then implied odds become a huge factor, so the math there is often more necessary (and more complicated) than in LHE where you learn the correct odds to chase certain draws within your first 5000 hands. A lot of LHE at the mid-stakes is about knowing when your opponent has nothing, and check/raising (NOT floating) when you think you can get your opponent to fold.
But to play a given limit of LHE, you need a smaller bankroll that NLHE. I wouldnt play 1/2 NLHE 6max without $5k, but I'd be happy playing 1/2 LHE 6max with just $1k. That said, remember skill is still a factor and if your skill can't hack these games you will go busto whatever your bankroll. |
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