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One_Jackal
Pair
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 34
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 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: Defend Your Hand! |
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I have noticed in many games everyone simply limps in. Then a player with AK laments there is no justice in poker when a player with 33 makes a set.
There is justice in poker but each and every player at the table must "lay down the law" with a preflop raise. You must defend your hand! There is no reason for any pot not to have 3 preflop raises. No player in his right mind will try to limp in 33 from early position. If he knows he will be double or triple raised!
You should never be the first to call! If your hand is NOT good enough to raise you should fold!
"Most important thing is premium hands. If the bet is good enough to call, you're raising. Tight but aggressive!"
Kevin Canty from the movie "Rounders."
No way I could have said it better! Take luck out of the game! Raise and defend your hand! |
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deadmoney314
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 3228
Location: grunching through reply posts
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:43 am Post subject: Preflop |
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I think you make a great point here, I'd like to add for limit I think preflop play is probably the most important part of your game. Like chess, there are openings, tactics, midgame, and endgame. The best chess player in the world would never be ranked #1 if his opening sucked. Don't get me wrong, you do have to have good flop turn and river play but I put preflop decisions above all else in importance.
What you do preflop sets the tone for the hand to be played and defines your position in the hand. I think tactics and showdown decisions play almost automatically after a while against the typical maniacs, calling stations & good players. The stuff that isnt so automatic is what to do with a middle pocket pair in EP against a raise from a maniac and a call from a good player--it can get confusing (wouldn't you expect the good player to raise?).
AKo or AKs is easy to play and a lot of people begin to distrust it if they have some bad experiences. Just remember, there are only two hands that you are afraid of, and you will not be up against them much--AA and KK. Also, even when you are up against KK, you are 25% to the river to snap him. All other hands you are either 50/50 or dominating. So get over the fear of AK and raise it like you should--even if you lose the next pot with it chances are you will snap off much larger pots to pay for any losses.
Lastly, as important as I stress preflop decisions, you can't peter out on the flop or turn. You must concentrate and figure situations out lest you leave your bankroll on the table. You can experiment, study and/or get as much experience as you can to improve your game. Players DO generally fall into basic categories and it is good to know ahead of time what you do with the basic maniac or the basic calling station--and make every effort to not be predictable yourself. You can be a good or great player for a while and if people pick up a beat on your play because you do the same thing every time you will again leave your bankroll on the table. Good luck heros. |
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Pokit2s
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1261
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Defend Your Hand! |
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| One_Jackal wrote: |
There is justice in poker but each and every player at the table must "lay down the law" with a preflop raise. You must defend your hand! There is no reason for any pot not to have 3 preflop raises. No player in his right mind will try to limp in 33 from early position. If he knows he will be double or triple raised!
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Good point, you are absolutely right, but I truly hope no one listens to this advice!! If we didnt have players who play too many hands pre flop, and limp too much with strong hands, it would be much harder to make money. I am on a bad streak due to some untimely river cards, but if it werent for these extra players donating dead money to the pots that I win, I would be down much more than I am now. I dont agree with never limping pre flop though. If I am at a loose table that usually have 5-6 pre flop limpers, you better believe I am limping with 33. Think about it, you are only going to win if you make a set here, raising will not scare anyone, if you make your set you will get paid off huge without risking much.
Argue with the last point all you want but it comes straight from Sklansky's Low Limit Holdem book. (I assume you are talking about Low Limits)
Believe it or not, limping pre flop can be the correct play in low limits with all kinds of hands. Suited connectors, suited gappers, low-mid pocket pairs all play best in multiway action. If you start raising with these hands, you will lose more $ then you have to, but if you simply fold these every time out of the blinds, you are missing out on some big big pots when you would have hit your straights or flushes in a loose/passive game.
I truly hope you were starting this discussion about low limits because if you are talking about mid-high limits, I just wasted a lot of typing time and energy. |
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Yukon555
High Card
Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here are my thoughts in regard to playing AK in low limit games (.50/1.00, 1$/2$).
What I run into are games where you have 3, 4, or even 5 players at the showdown. Now, true, I can try to pick better games to play in  , but to continue my thought, in this sort of game it's almost like the other players are unaffected by any "logical thinking". They just are playing for fun, and want to see the showdown as often as possible.
In this situation, if you keep betting your AK hand after a rags flop, it seems to me you are in for a lot of losses at the river. often while having had to put in 2 or more bets to get to the showdown. Because these insane players are just as likely as you to get a set, a straight, a flush, or a full house, if they just stay in the game no matter what the cost. A set of 2s will beat you on many occasions, or a low straight, etc..
It almost seems like in games like I describe, you're wiser to limp in with a premium hand, then if you get the good flop, then make them pay with raises etc.. Or if you raise with the strong hand pre-flop, you fold on the rags flop because you're very likely to lose several more bets to one of the maniacs on the river.
I know this is not poker according to "Hoyle", or any other poker guru, but it seems to be possibly the way to play in these "nofoldem holdem" games at the low limit tables.
Eric |
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Pokit2s
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1261
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Yukon555 wrote: |
It almost seems like in games like I describe, you're wiser to limp in with a premium hand, then if you get the good flop, then make them pay with raises etc..
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This is a safe strategy, you probably wont lose many big pots. The problem is, with a big hand pre flop, you are getting better pot equity than any of the other players at the table. If there are 4 players in the hand, you will probably be about 40% to win with AK. This is much better than the 25% equity in a 4 handed pot. In order to maximize your profits. You must juice up the pot as much as possible pre flop, to make sure that you win as much as you can the 40% of the time you do win.
If you just limp with big hands pre flop, you are not exactly losing money, but you are not going to win as much as you could have had you raised before the flop. |
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Saint Cad
Full House
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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We might be getting into Mike Caro territory here, but I think action immediately after the flop is important. I was at a 3/6 table with 10-6 on the BB. Flop comes up 7-6-2. SB checks and I bet confidently but not the "strong means weak" tell and get one caller. The button fumes and (literally) throws his hand into the muck. When we turn over the hands (my 6 lost to the caller's 7), the button explodes. "How could you bet that! I thought you had an overpair!" He apparently folded A-6. 
He wasn't a genius, but most people at the tables are not (at least at Commerce), I've gotten people to call so many of my nut hands by the "study the board for 5 minutes  " routine. I know, it's sad to take their money so easily. |
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jack-actionhero
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| whoever said to always raise before the flop isn't going to go far in poker. |
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griffinlord
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2459
Location: The Great Plains of South Dakota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| jack-actionhero wrote: |
| whoever said to always raise before the flop isn't going to go far in poker. |
As in "Always raise with any two cards" or as in "Always raise with a big pocket pair?"
In the first case you are making a huge mistake as you'll need to fold most hands post-flop unless you catch a miracle and you'll lose lots more than you win.
In the second case you are building a pot which you are favored to win. |
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jack-actionhero
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think strategically you should ever play a hand the same twice at the same table.
People that ram and jam a pot on every bet when they have aces will not get to build many big pots. Same thing with an obvious flush or straight that hits on a flop. |
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deadmoney314
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 3228
Location: grunching through reply posts
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| jack-actionhero wrote: |
I don't think strategically you should ever play a hand the same twice at the same table.
People that ram and jam a pot on every bet when they have aces will not get to build many big pots. Same thing with an obvious flush or straight that hits on a flop. |
In limit poker you should raise big slick into a limping field. I don't care about how you play, since according to your logic if you are on the button with AK and it is folded to you, the first time you should raise, the second time this happens (if it does) you should call and let the blinds in for free so that you don't mirror your first action <--mistake, and the third time --however unlikely in the same game-- you should outright fold so that you don't play it how you played it the first two times, then if you happen to get it the fourth time you have to leave because you are out of options.
Only one of those plays is right, its the first one, raise. The rest of the world can get sick with fancy play syndrome and I will reap the benefit raising whenever I believe I am the favorite and not giving free cards to the long line of fish at the limit tables.
I would say good luck but you need a lot more than that to be a consistant winner jack-in-the-box |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| I do NOT like the raise or fold strategy. Hands like suited connectors and baby pairs are great to get in CHEAP - as in, for one bet if possible. Not to raise the hell out of before you have a hand. I'm all for aggression, but this kind of unmitigated aggression is just dangerous. It forces you to either fold fairly good hands or commit more chips than you really want to. Why put lots of chips in with a mediocre hand? I'm a big fan of big pot=big hand. As for little pots - I steal half of those... |
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jack-actionhero
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| outright fold AK if you get it 3 times? That is the single worst bit of poker advice I have ever heard in my entire life. Nobody knows what you muck, genius. |
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guitarguy178
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1910
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Re: |
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| jack-actionhero wrote: |
| outright fold AK if you get it 3 times? That is the single worst bit of poker advice I have ever heard in my entire life. Nobody knows what you muck, genius. |
That wasn't poker advice. Deadmoney was making a statement based on your comments. Read the post all of the way through before you comment on it. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: Re: |
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| guitarguy178 wrote: |
| jack-actionhero wrote: |
| outright fold AK if you get it 3 times? That is the single worst bit of poker advice I have ever heard in my entire life. Nobody knows what you muck, genius. |
That wasn't poker advice. Deadmoney was making a statement based on your comments. Read the post all of the way through before you comment on it. |
Indeed. Dead's post was simply a rebuttal of yours - which you heartily agreed with... |
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jack-actionhero
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| when somebody uses a belittling form of my name to me, I will continue to completely disregard any and all comments by that person. |
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