|
| Author |
Message |
skeeter1114
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 1672
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: Stud Hi/Lo HH |
 |
|
PokerStars Game #11675606253: Tournament #58540466, $1.00+$0.10 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2007/08/24 - 23:18:24 (ET)
Table '58540466 29' 8-max
Seat 1: ternyberny (4652 in chips)
Seat 2: ol nugger (787 in chips)
Seat 3: STRIDER2123 (25636 in chips)
Seat 4: paul3014 (16595 in chips)
Seat 5: skeeter1114 (6198 in chips)
Seat 6: dead gnome (1680 in chips)
Seat 7: CPABILLY (8338 in chips)
Seat 8: DesertLevi (3487 in chips)
ternyberny: posts the ante 80
ol nugger: posts the ante 80
STRIDER2123: posts the ante 80
paul3014: posts the ante 80
skeeter1114: posts the ante 80
dead gnome: posts the ante 80
CPABILLY: posts the ante 80
DesertLevi: posts the ante 80
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to ternyberny [7d]
Dealt to ol nugger [9s]
Dealt to STRIDER2123 [5d]
Dealt to paul3014 [5h]
Dealt to skeeter1114 [3s 6h 3d]
Dealt to dead gnome [Jc]
Dealt to CPABILLY [Ah]
Dealt to DesertLevi [8c]
skeeter1114: brings in for 120
dead gnome: folds
CPABILLY: raises 280 to 400
DesertLevi: calls 400
ternyberny: folds
ol nugger: folds
STRIDER2123: folds
paul3014: folds
skeeter1114: calls 280
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to skeeter1114 [3s 6h 3d] [3c]
Dealt to CPABILLY [Ah] [3h]
Dealt to DesertLevi [8c] [5s]
skeeter1114: checks
CPABILLY: bets 400
DesertLevi: calls 400
skeeter1114: calls 400
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to skeeter1114 [3s 6h 3d 3c] [Kh]
Dealt to CPABILLY [Ah 3h] [7s]
Dealt to DesertLevi [8c 5s] [9c]
skeeter1114: checks
CPABILLY: bets 800
DesertLevi: calls 800
skeeter1114: raises 800 to 1600
CPABILLY: calls 800
DesertLevi: calls 800
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to skeeter1114 [3s 6h 3d 3c Kh] [2c]
Dealt to CPABILLY [Ah 3h 7s] [6c]
Dealt to DesertLevi [8c 5s 9c] [Td]
skeeter1114: bets 800
CPABILLY: calls 800
DesertLevi: calls 800
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to skeeter1114 [3s 6h 3d 3c Kh 2c] [4d]
skeeter1114: bets 800
CPABILLY: calls 800
DesertLevi: calls 207 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
skeeter1114: shows [3s 6h 3d 3c Kh 2c 4d] (HI: three of a kind, Threes)
CPABILLY: shows [Ad Ac Ah 3h 7s 6c 9d] (HI: three of a kind, Aces)
CPABILLY collected 1186 from side pot
DesertLevi: shows [7c Th 8c 5s 9c Td Jh] (HI: a straight, Seven to Jack)
DesertLevi collected 10861 from main pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 12047 Main pot 10861. Side pot 1186. | Rake 0
Seat 1: ternyberny folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ol nugger folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: STRIDER2123 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: paul3014 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: skeeter1114 showed [3s 6h 3d 3c Kh 2c 4d] and lost with HI: three of a kind, Threes
Seat 6: dead gnome folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 7: CPABILLY showed [Ad Ac Ah 3h 7s 6c 9d] and won (1186) with HI: three of a kind, Aces
Seat 8: DesertLevi showed [7c Th 8c 5s 9c Td Jh] and won (10861) with HI: a straight, Seven to Jack |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3279
Location: East Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Played just fine IMO. You got the value out of them, just were outdrawn on 7th. Pretty tough to lose the Aces(no way he had them rolled) and I have no idea what the other guy was doing in the hand, really just playing backdoor and inside draws. Awful actually. His starting hand selection was about as bad as it gets for hi/lo stud. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skeeter1114
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 1672
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Zophar. Believe it or not, this was the way everyone's hands were dealt, as this was on Pokerstars, and they don't mix up the hands in the stud games. My question here is even if I put him on a simple pair of aces, is it alright for me to still call in the hopes of either getting another 3 or end up with a low?
And yes, I have no idea what the other guy was doing in the pot. This was about 60-70 left in the tourney (top 40 paid), so apparently bad play continues deep into the tourney. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3279
Location: East Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| That's the thing with Stud8, raised A's can represent alot of different hands. So yes, playing a pair of shorts w/another low card is fine to continue with. You have the option to go high or low. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zophar wrote: |
| That's the thing with Stud8, raised A's can represent alot of different hands. So yes, playing a pair of shorts w/another low card is fine to continue with. You have the option to go high or low. |
I disagree, to an extent. It would be ok to play HU against the pair of aces, but w/ the other guy in the hand, I'd dump it. You only have two low cards, so if either one has a pair, and the other has 3 low cards, you are behind both ways. Even if you make 3s and 6s, it is unlikely to be good. I'd just dump it on 3rd and save yourself a lot of chasing to second best hands. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3279
Location: East Coast
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I didn't used to play low pairs w/a baby until more recently. They are better hands than one would think. When I first came upon discussion of their strength, I was a bit hesitent. But after researching the concept and playing around with two dimes a bit, I've come to realize that they are playable in many instances.
In this situation, anything running up against rolled aces is in rough shape(he played them so poorly on 5th street), but most situations won't be against such a strong hand. I ran some simulations against a more typical hand and he's really not much of a dog.
3s6h3d vs. AdAh4c, 7cTh8c
The pair of 3's are less than a 2 to 1 underdog to scoop and/or win high and about a 49/51 underdog to win low.
3s6h3d vs. AdAh9c, 7cTh8c
If you changed the 4c to the 9c, he's even in better shape with the 3's being about a 1.4 to 1 dog for the scoop, 1.7 dog to win high and a 5.5 to 1 favorite to win low. His odds on 3rd are better than 6 to 1 to call the completion.
3s6h3d vs. Ad6d4c, 7cTh8c
With another common situation, the 3's become a slight favorite to scoop, about a 1.5 to1 favorite to win high and a 3 to 1 dog to win low.
Unless he pairs his board(ideal) or the 7 pairs, he's likely to be in position the rest of the hand. If the 33 catches an Ace, the aggressor would need to catch a 2 to lose that edge.
As you know, hand ranges broaden in Stud 8. This allows for the overall strength of a represented A to be decreased in value, thus increasing the strength of paired babies w/baby side card versus a raised Ace. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zophar wrote: |
I didn't used to play low pairs w/a baby until more recently. They are better hands than one would think. When I first came upon discussion of their strength, I was a bit hesitent. But after researching the concept and playing around with two dimes a bit, I've come to realize that they are playable in many instances.
In this situation, anything running up against rolled aces is in rough shape(he played them so poorly on 5th street), but most situations won't be against such a strong hand. I ran some simulations against a more typical hand and he's really not much of a dog.
3s6h3d vs. AdAh4c, 7cTh8c
The pair of 3's are less than a 2 to 1 underdog to scoop and/or win high and about a 49/51 underdog to win low.
3s6h3d vs. AdAh9c, 7cTh8c
If you changed the 4c to the 9c, he's even in better shape with the 3's being about a 1.4 to 1 dog for the scoop, 1.7 dog to win high and a 5.5 to 1 favorite to win low. His odds on 3rd are better than 6 to 1 to call the completion.
3s6h3d vs. Ad6d4c, 7cTh8c
With another common situation, the 3's become a slight favorite to scoop, about a 1.5 to1 favorite to win high and a 3 to 1 dog to win low.
Unless he pairs his board(ideal) or the 7 pairs, he's likely to be in position the rest of the hand. If the 33 catches an Ace, the aggressor would need to catch a 2 to lose that edge.
As you know, hand ranges broaden in Stud 8. This allows for the overall strength of a represented A to be decreased in value, thus increasing the strength of paired babies w/baby side card versus a raised Ace. |
Yes, thats all well and good if you have an idiot playing 78T, but I just don't expect that to happen very often. What if he is up against AA4 and 678? Or perhaps the A is the one w/ 3 low cards, and he's up against something like A45 and 878? This is why I say it is better to play it HU. In your examples, it is pretty close to playing its HU, since the 78T is such a horrible hand. The problem I am talking about is when you are against 2 other people who know what they are doing, and actually have stud8 hands. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3279
Location: East Coast
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He's playing in a $1 tourney, so the expectation level of opponents understanding of the game is very low. Even in a $10 tourney, the quality of play is bad.
Even against several good players though, it's almost never a big underdog. When I get a chance, I plan on running it against 2 premium Hi/Lo hands(excluding rolls) such as the examples you've listed. I have a feeling the numbers won't be too far off.
With any hand reading abilities, an average player should have an idea where they stand in the hand on 4th and 5th street and whether it's worth continuing.
I don't consider it an insta fold by any means. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skeeter1114
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 1672
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Strasse, look at what the eventual guy started off, and played the entire way. This shows he probably doesn't know what he is doing. Plus, why not play a hand like this? Now, if there's a second raise, then I would probably fold. But, if I brick on 4th, it's a fold. I hit the best card I could have, what's the odds of him having rolled up aces. Plus, if he has aces and hits a second pair, I'm probably going to get a lot more chips from him. And, why would someone be completing with an A and 2 low cards? Is it common or even good strategy to complete with 3 to a low, with an ace showing? I appreciate both Zophar and Strasse's opinions, as I continue to try and tweak all games I play in, and enjoy these debates. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| skeeter1114 wrote: |
| Strasse, look at what the eventual guy started off, and played the entire way. This shows he probably doesn't know what he is doing. Plus, why not play a hand like this? Now, if there's a second raise, then I would probably fold. But, if I brick on 4th, it's a fold. I hit the best card I could have, what's the odds of him having rolled up aces. Plus, if he has aces and hits a second pair, I'm probably going to get a lot more chips from him. And, why would someone be completing with an A and 2 low cards? Is it common or even good strategy to complete with 3 to a low, with an ace showing? I appreciate both Zophar and Strasse's opinions, as I continue to try and tweak all games I play in, and enjoy these debates. |
Well, to debate your point about making a lot of money when he makes aces up, I'm going to say no. He had rolled aces and he wasn't even jamming, so you certainly aren't going to make a ton of money when he makes aces up. The chances of you making trips aren't even good anyways, you only have two outs to it. Also, yes, it is very common to complete w/ an ace and two low cards. The reason is that you can represent aces, and you still have a very quality hand to continue with, especially if its 3 to a wheel. Sometimes you can scoop the pot this way if you start low, but your board starts to look threatening to a high, when in reality your high is quite weak. I'm off to run a couple of hands, I'll brb and post them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
363 vs A4A and 678 has an equity of .235
363 vs A45 and 878 has an equity of .275
I rest my case.
HU against the A4A its equity jumps to .355, and HU against the A45 its equity jumps to .477. As I said, these small pair, small kicker hands play much better HU. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3279
Location: East Coast
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Strasse wrote: |
363 vs A4A and 678 has an equity of .235
363 vs A45 and 878 has an equity of .275
I rest my case.
HU against the A4A its equity jumps to .355, and HU against the A45 its equity jumps to .477. As I said, these small pair, small kicker hands play much better HU. |
I never disagreed that they don't play better HU and against those specific hand combos it is a bigger dog than I expected. But only slightly worse than expected.
I would still disagree though that they can't be played multi way. There are enough situations where you won't be facing 2 or even 1 premium hi/lo to make them playable and profitable. In this situation, I completely understand him calling the completion. He was getting good odds, had good position for atleast 2 streets and had a modest hand. Not a monster, but playable for sure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
FAQ
Search
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
