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mathman1115

So i finally did it in NL holdem. I folded KK preflop. Here are the details so someone please tell me if i made the right play, to the best of your knowledge......
The stakes are low, only .10/.25 with the max $25 buyin. My stack is about $34. I am small blind and i get KK. The player under the gun, who has a stack about equal to mine raises to one dollar. Now he has only been there about 20 hands but has folded alot so i assume he is not a maniac, but that of course does not mean he is tight.
Everyone folds to me, and i reraise to $3.50. The BB folds, and he then reraises to $9 something, so i fold.
Here is my reasoning: He is not a maniac, and early indications say he is somewhat tight. His stack is about equal to mine and we are both winning. He initially made a solid raise under the gun and was not afraid of my reraise. He wasn't short stacked, losing, or frustrated since he had made money so far, and he wasn't afraid of losing his whole stack. Did i make the right play??
I realize more info might be needed, but do you think he had AA??

chopper260 · Guest

considering the stakes I would have called. He reraised to $9 so it only costs you an additional $5.50. You could then see the flop and since you were BB you could make a small bet into him to test his hand. Depending on the flop you could take the information and decide what to do.

IMO about 20 hands is not enough time to make an evaluation on a player.

Marek99 · Two Pair Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Posts: 54 Location: Slovakia

i dont agree with your move. KKs is second best starting hand in holdem and it happens rarely that someone has been dealt AA when holding kings.

i would lay down kings if too many all ins before my move as kings and other premium pairs are usually doomed against large field.

snowsix · Pair Joined: 22 Dec 2005 Posts: 30 Location: Canada N.B

That is good discipline. I don�t know for sure if that was the right decision, but on the positive side, it only cost you $3.50. It could of cost you a lot more.

He went $9 and it looks like he was trying to rope you in. To me it looks like he may have had the AA, but he would be the only one that would know for sure.

If you had AA and some one raised it to $3.50, what would you do Question

SKS_Poker · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:56 am Post subject:

I don't know if it was a good move. The pot was at about $8.25 with you to call $5.50. You're out of position, but he could have been trying to just buy you out right then and there with AK, AQ suited, or even JJ or QQ or even a middle pocket pair like 9's or 10's. I think I would have called that as you are a huge favorite against any hand other than AA so odds are that you're not up against AA.

If he had AA then I suppose it was a very good fold, but you can't tell from your description and the length of time he was sitting at your table. However, with the odds in your favor that he's NOT holding AA, and the pot laying you 1.5 to 1 and you're most likely at least a 60:40 if not 81:19 favorite with nice implied odds, I think I would have at least seen a flop. If no ace fell on the flop, then I would put out a probe bet to find out where I'm at.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:14 am Post subject:

I also don't agree with the fold.

You'll run into AA when you have KK about 4% of the time. If you fold KK to resistance you'll be folding the winning hand more times than you'll be folding the losing hand. Online, that guy could have had anything from 99-QQ, or AK. Play KK like AA and you'll win more hands than you lose.

How much of your bankroll was at the table?

Would you have made that call at the $.05/.10 table?

mathman1115 · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:55 am Post subject:

At lower stakes i would have reraised all in, or if my stack was low (say like half the buyin or less) i would have reraised all in. Like i said his stack was a winning one as was mine, which is the main reason why i folded. I never really considered calling. I knew that once i put that much money in preflop a board with all small cards would not allow me to get away from the hand.
I guess now that i think about it i probably made the wrong decision. I mean the buyin was 1/50th of my bankroll, so its not like i couldn't afford the swing. Some of you made a great point about how folding KK would be the wrong decision more often than the right one since there is only one hand that can be better.
Thanks all for the input.
One thing i do get out of this is the fact that i had the discipline to do it, even if it was the wrong decision.

mstAA mAArtini · Guest

"When in doubt folding is always an inexpensive option." - 4cTi0n D4n

At a 10 person table, Kings are dealt simultaneously 1/24 times with AA so there's litteraly no way to ever rationalize that folding KK is profitable over the long run- GET YOUR CHIPS IN THE MIDDLE!!!!!! GROWWW A PAIR!

mistaken69 · Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject:

i dont think it was a good laydown...i actually think its awful. No offense but that looks to me liek your playing scared. Id call the reraise and see a flop..if it comes rags your destined to lose.

btw...i think he may have had ak.

sammybolung · Guest

I always reraise with KK and if i were you, i woulda reraise again.Sometimes, i was dealt KK and somebody else AA, but what's the chance?or if i'm afraid he had AA, i might just call to see the flop. i think he might have AK or QQ.

Kei · Two Pair Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 69

Why not call the $5.50 and see if you flop well? You could easily flop a king and then we way ahead. And if you're wrong, you're back to your original buy-in of $25...not a big deal.

Maybe UTG thought you were trying to push him around. He might've put you on AKs (a very possible reraising hand from the blinds) and had QQ. He knows he's the favorite at this point, and many players will rereraise with QQ, especially if he thinks you have AK.

Call the preflop bet. Folding KK in a cash game is very rarely a good idea.

VikingDaddy · High Card Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2

There are worse things to consider when contemplating whether you made the right move. First, and foremost, is the leverage you just gave that player against you. Any time he feels even a slight bit of weakness in you, he knows he can push you out quick, even if you clearly have the better hand, and even if he is holding 7 2 off. You showed a solid re-raise preflop, and the biggest killer hand a person could have against you is only 4% to hit.

A $1 raise on that table is not a significant raise. I would have put them on AK, AQ, QQ, JJ, 10 10, even 88. People who play the lower tables find high value in mediocre hands. I am one who plays at those tables only because I choose to. I feel it gives me some practice at playing against maniacs, which you can run into at any tables online.

When he re-raised to $9+, it would have been an easy call. You have the second best possible hand available. If he is truly holding AA, with that level table, he would move all in after the flop on just about any flop shown, except str8 or flush draws. Then, you should have based your decision on the amount of the bet he makes, of course you would check into him knowing at this point you still probably led the hand based on the flop. If an A comes on the flop, you would probably lose the $9, but I would venture you had his hand covered.

Should have called. I am guessing he was aggressive with you after that hand.

Dmoore1998 · Guest

Folding KK in a ring game is almost NEVER the right play pre-flop. Unless you have an excellent read on your opponents, folding KK is nearly always a negative EV play. I would fold KK more often in a tournament with multiple all-ins ahead of me but in a ring game where you only have 1/50th your bankroll at the table...I would advise raise all-in and if he's got AA then take your lumps. You're only going to run into AA to your KK 4% of the time...if you're scared of that 4% then you're not going to hold up to the pressure of aggressive players very well.

Saint Cad · Full House Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 184

Here is another option. You have KK in the SB and are out of position. The BB likely has nothing to worry about (2 random cards) so a raise probably wins the blinds (1/3 of which is your own money). Why not call, hope he pairs on the flop and try to trap?

The fact that you did not take better than 2.25:1 odds on KK preflop means you are probably too passive (at least on this hand).

VTbecker00 · Pair Joined: 21 Jan 2006 Posts: 24 Location: Virginia Tech

I definately think that pot odds say you should of called. Was only 5.50 more to see the flop. Then if the flop was real ugly or he still came strong then you can decide to fold. KK is huge preflop, very disciplined fold though....

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