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Wahooka
Two Pair
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 69
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 Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: Did I play JJ wrong? |
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Okay, I'm in the dealer position with JJ... 3 callers ahead of me. I raise but everyone decides to call, including small and big blind. 5 players see the flop.
Flop: 237 with flush draw possibility
Everyone checks to me, I bet, and everyone calls!
Turn: 7
Everyone checks to me. I decide not to give free card to the flush draws and I bet and get check-raised by dude holding a 7. I fold.
River: J
Okay, I would have won a huge pot if I had just checked the turn, but was that the correct play to allow 5 players a free river card?
This was a tough hand, need advice...
Wahooka |
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Strasse
Forum Ego
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 5097
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| You will probably get better advice if you don't say that the guy had a seven, but I would have checked. 4 other people saw the flop, and not only that, but they all called a bet on the flop. I think that it would be HIGHLY unlikely to get 4 callers w/o one having top pair. |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3463
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Yeah I agree it's probably best to check the turn and save a bet. You could already be behind to a ragged 2 pair, especially from the blinds. It's also fairly likely someone has top pair here, although I would often expect them to check/raise the flop for information, so discounting it is understandable.
The fact you would have hit your J on the river is fairly irrelevant, the odds of it happening were 22:1, and you weren't getting those odds to call. Good fold & better luck next time. |
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Wahooka
Two Pair
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Well, my other question is:
Was it even worth raising with JJ in last position, giving away the strength of my hand, when I knew I would most likely not get anyone to fold? Or was it worth it to get the small blind out?
Wahooka |
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Banks337
High Card
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| well first of all you dont say how much you raised it. If the blinds were 30/60 and you went to 120... then yeah they are gonna call. It really depends on how much yer betting. I would like to know how much he came over the top of you when you bet on the turn. |
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AllInDrawinDead
Royal Flush
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 615
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Check or bet the turn? no need to value bet w/ so much in the pot. No point in betting to protect your hand either. May as well check to see what the river brings and what action follows. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6431
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Banks337 wrote: |
| well first of all you dont say how much you raised it. If the blinds were 30/60 and you went to 120... then yeah they are gonna call. It really depends on how much yer betting. I would like to know how much he came over the top of you when you bet on the turn. |
Did you notice which forum this is?  |
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griffinlord
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2459
Location: The Great Plains of South Dakota
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| fire_eyes_2k wrote: |
The fact you would have hit your J on the river is fairly irrelevant, the odds of it happening were 22:1, and you weren't getting those odds to call. Good fold & better luck next time. |
+1 Most of the time you miss on the river and would lose to the three sevens. No need to bet the turn here unless you can be certain that no one has a 7 and given the number of limpers you can be fairly sure someone does have a 7. Check it through.
| Wahooka wrote: |
Well, my other question is:
Was it even worth raising with JJ in last position, giving away the strength of my hand, when I knew I would most likely not get anyone to fold? Or was it worth it to get the small blind out? |
In the small limit games you are deciding whether to see the flop cheap or build a pot--occassionally you can get one of the blinds to fold, but often they'll call in order to defend their blinds.
A lot depends on the table dynamics. If 4 people are calling you to the river no matter what then playing cheap unless you are sure you have the best hand is reasonable. If folks tend to fold to post-flop pressure then a preflop raise is setting you up to take the pot on the flop or turn. |
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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 3085
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Wahooka wrote: |
Well, my other question is:
Was it even worth raising with JJ in last position, giving away the strength of my hand, when I knew I would most likely not get anyone to fold? Or was it worth it to get the small blind out?
Wahooka |
Yes, i think it is worth raising. You have position, and you likely have the best hand. Plus there was a small chance that the blinds would have folded.
Also, i would have checked the turn there. If you planned on folding to a check raise, you lost one big bet and didn't get a showdown. By checking the turn, you can call a river bet no matter what comes on the river for that big bet and get the showdown, and maybe even induce a bluff.
As the others said, it was very likely someone had at least top pair with 4 players calling your flop cbet. However, the fact that you folded to the turn check raise was still mathematically correct, so you can't be results oriented there. |
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bigwheell
Royal Flush
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 830
Location: North Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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JJ is a long term winning hand(64% for me over 78000 hands, since I got poker tracker). Raising preflop, even raising the field like in this situation is a value raise, imho...
The way you played it, I would see the river in this situation, too many players will bluff checkraise, or semibluff a scarecard in this situation, or make the same type of play with an overpair that is weaker than yours...
Another option, which I think I would have done, is to 3 bet the turn, folding to a reraise...I think this is probably the best option, as long as you are able to fold to a 4 bet 
This may scare a better hand(AA, KK, 2 pair) into checking to you on the river, giving you a free showdown. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8141
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bigwheell wrote: |
JJ is a long term winning hand(64% for me over 78000 hands, since I got poker tracker). Raising preflop, even raising the field like in this situation is a value raise, imho...
The way you played it, I would see the river in this situation, too many players will bluff checkraise, or semibluff a scarecard in this situation, or make the same type of play with an overpair that is weaker than yours...
Another option, which I think I would have done, is to 3 bet the turn, folding to a reraise...I think this is probably the best option, as long as you are able to fold to a 4 bet
This may scare a better hand(AA, KK, 2 pair) into checking to you on the river, giving you a free showdown. |
It's really hard for me to see 3-betting as an option here. We're paying the same amount when we're beat as if we call down, and we also discourage bluffs on the river. If we're calling down, which I think is a very reasonable option, we're better off keeping villain's range wide and having him fire again on the river since we're calling anyway. Also, there are no two pair hands to be scared of other than overpairs since the board is paired. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6431
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bigwheell wrote: |
Another option, which I think I would have done, is to 3 bet the turn, folding to a reraise...I think this is probably the best option, as long as you are able to fold to a 4 bet
This may scare a better hand(AA, KK, 2 pair) into checking to you on the river, giving you a free showdown. |
How does that make any sense? You add an extra bet on the turn only to take one away on the river. You lose the same amount. And like Riddim said you discourage bluffs, as well as make it easier for weaker pairs to fold. |
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bigwheell
Royal Flush
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 830
Location: North Dakota
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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I did make some assumptions about the hand, because he did not use a converter, show the actual hand history, or make mention of the stakes the hand was played at...
I guess I cannot comment too much about the optimum play here when we don't have a actual HH to disect.
I was assuming that my three bet did not have any callers between me and the check raiser to my right.
With flop like that, there are soooo many ways that a player could semi bluff the hand, or even make an outright bluff at it, that you can't automatically assume that you hand is beat when you get checkraised on the turn.
3 betting will kill the odds most times for the players left to call trying to fill their gutshots, open enders, and flush draws. You may not get rid of them, but the are forced most of the time to draw with unfavorable odds if they do call.
My thinking is that a 3 bet on the check raise will give you a better chance of winning the hand at the river by forcing out drawing hands. I would do this even though there is a chance that I could be behind. |
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sockerkid008
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1175
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| wow I look at this a little differently then all of you actually. Im a very aggressive player when im in a pot and once I saw that flop after raising preflop I would of been all in protecting my hand trying to get all the people out drawing to there flush and straight draws. Yes the turn would of gave him a set but he would of been punished for calling you with ace 7 preflop with the river being a jack. |
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sockerkid008
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1175
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| oh jeez was this a limit tournament? I just realized im in the fixed limit forum. If it was limit then everything i said doesnt matter |
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