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BarkyBree · Pair Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Posts: 40

I've been playing a lot of low-stakes limit hold 'em. Mostly for practice, I'm not the best player in the world.

Today, I'm seeing many players doing check-raises, and the strategy baffles me in low-stakes hold 'em. In no limit games, I can clearly see the point of the check-raise, you basically want to trap your opponent into playing poor cards (and hopefully boost your take).

But in limit? Stealing that extra $0.25? And the defense for the check-raise is really simple: just check and call if you want to keep favorable pot odds.

Am I missing something?

Big Slick x13x · Forum Icon Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 4303 Location: ROK

In limit, every bet or half bet you can get is worth it, since you can't win your opponents whole stack at once then you have to get every little bit possible.

HuJwang · Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject:

If you're sure your opponent will bet, and you're pretty sure you have the best hand, check raising is usually a good way to get more money into the pot.

There's also another, subtler reason for check raising in multiway pots when you are in early position. I'll demonstrate it by example (cliffs notes at bottom I promise)

Suppose you're playing a fairly loose game, and you're sitting in the big blind with 97 suited.

2 people limp, and a person in late position raises. The small blind calls, you call getting great odds, and the limpers both call too. 10 small bets in the pot.

The flop is: K 9 7 with two spades.

You almost certainly have the best hand right now. But I don't think you should bet out here. You should probably check-raise. With 10 small bets in the pot, if you bet, everyone is getting 11:1 to call. They are correct to call with stuff like gutshots, and so on. Instead you should check and hope someone bets, probably the preflop raiser. This way, you make people call 2 bets, giving them around 6.5:1 to call. This cuts down their odds severely. There are a lot of possible hands here with good draws. QJ, QT, JT, J8, 85, 65 all have got gutshots. Some people may also have something like a pair with a backdoor flush draw, which you probably want them to fold.

Sure, they may call anyway, even though their odds are poor. But the important thing is that they had to call 2 bets instead of 1. They've made a mistake and you just profited regardless of the outcome of the hand. And of course you'll never get open-ended straight draws or flush draws to fold, but at least you're making them pay a little more to chase.

Cliff's notes: The moral of the story is that with strong but vulnerable hands in multiway pots you should be doing a lot of check-raising a lot to get your opponents to either fold weak draws, or make a mistake and call.

skeeter1114 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 2492

I agree with check-raising in a loose table. Another time that isn't bad to make a few more dollars (tourney or cash game) is when you flop the nuts, say you have 7-10, and a flop of 6-8-9 rainbow. I like to call on the flop, and check raise on the turn. Someone hitting runner-runner flush here are slim (unless you talk to the "it's rigged people). Top pair is drawing dead. A set or 2 pair is a big dog, and you will make money a majority of the time. This way, you get a half a bet more than you would check-raising on the flop.

Ex: $1/$2 table. Check-raise on flop ($2, $2, $2 = $6.) Check-raise on turn ($1, $4, $2 = $7). In this case, I'm assuming you're not beat on the river, and the original raiser suspects something may be going on.

BarkyBree · Pair Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Posts: 40

JaketheStake · Straight Flush Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 415

Huj, as usual, saved me a post. The following is especially relevant:

AllInDrawinDead · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject:

if the preflop raiser is aggressive why not lead out at the flop, hopefully get raised, and then check-raise the turn.

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject:

Zophar · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject:

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8141 Location: Sweden

Zophar · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject:

Yes I'm aware. However it's not a donkbet when you have the best hand and I'd also rather get an extra bet in on the turn than flop when possible.
Example: Button raises, SB folds, you call in the BB w/55. Flop comes A95 rainbow. You have a few ways to play the hand here(assuming opp. hit the ace).
You check/raise. Common sequence of events when check/raising the flop is c-bet turn and river with just smooth calls from there. In a 1/2 game that's a pot of $16.50 or 8.25BB's.

Another play is to lead out, an implied donkbet, but actually ahead. You are representing an A. Get raised(or not), smooth call and check/raise the turn. C-bet river. 1/2 game, result in a pot of $20.50 or 10.25 BB's. If opp. doesn't raise the flop(given hit their A) and you check the turn, it is almost guaranteed opp. bets turn. Given this sequence it's a pot of $18.50 or 9.25BB's.

It's not a play that should be done every occasion, but it can be very profitable when playing OOP. You are basically causing the opponent to put more money in with the worst of it. And like I said previously, as many free cards given will be received by it's use. During HU horse, I find I'm able to use if frequently(frequently being twice in a round).

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject:

The biggest problem with your example Z is that often your opponent will not have the ace you are representing and you won't get paid off. However if you wait until the turn, they will often fire another bullet and you can do your c/r there.

Also having briefly tried that strategy at 1/2 and .5/1 it wasnt making me any money so it's gone from my repertoire. I think you might be referring to HEFAP which is aimed at players who are playing opponents who think above the 1/2 level.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8141 Location: Sweden

Z, you seem to have misunderstood the definition of donkbet. It has nothing to do with if it's good or not in a particular situation. It's simply a name for betting into the player with the betting lead, because such bets are rarely optimal.

There's no need to use it here to disguise the times when we do it with weak hands in my opinion, since I don't see a reason for doing it in those cases either. It also seems unlikely to be the best way to get value out of our hand. Even though we're going to win more the times that we pull it off, there are usually other lines that work much better overall because they get more value when our opponent's hand is too weak for the bet/call flop, c/r turn to work. Even though this play has it's place, it requires some very specific reads in order to be optimal.

Zophar · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject:

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8141 Location: Sweden

Making alternative plays for the sake of making them is completely useless, and the only reason I could see for making that play on the flop was to be able to do it with weak hands too without being too easy to read. That's why I mentioned the disguise thing. The c/c flop, c/r turn line is so good because it both allows you to get value from your strong hands by waiting for a big bet street to raise and blends in with the weak hands with which you play similarly up until the turn raise.

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