Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

fammy · Pair Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 21

Just a reply to the reply to the reply...and by the way, I also did not want this to turn into a Rounders thread....but I just can't resist (though I am learning to resist while sitting at the table Wink

)...aren't just about ALL of the quotes in rounders from some where else? If not, Caro is in HUGE trouble for intellectual property infringement (and before anyone posts....NO I AM NOT ACCUSING HIM....heh).

And as always,

High blood sugar gets you in 20 years, low blood sugar gets you today!!!

Fammy

Maybe they need a "Poker Health" forum...hmmm, maybe I will apply for the job.

SatchDork · Full House Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 245

cabbagee · High Card Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 3

Have you considered to play a variety of games? I believe that playing more games than just limit hold'em will increase your thought process.

I also recommend that you prepare a few lessons as if you were to teach a seminar. I have presented some seminars and found that it improved my game. I have also provided lessons to several groups on a variety of topics.

Give it a try.

I will be happy to review and copy edit the materials if you decide to put together your own training materials.

Have you ever documented your strategy for a STT or a multi-table tournament? Put it on paper.

Good luck. cabbagee@sbcglobal.net

griffinlord · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: Re:

fammy · Pair Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 21

Hey,

I think that putting lessons together could be done...I have done it in the past with different material...except...we are not necessicerily dealing with "rules" that can be memorized. As we all know, poker, and the decisions associated, are very situational, and as such, a true lesson would need to encompass at least the prototypic permutations, if not all of the possibilities. That is one of the things that the various materials out there try to do, but clearly they would be no match for having a "better" player watch your play and then immediately discuss / give feedback on the actual situation. Yes, many things can be learned on your own, but I think we would all agree that, as with anything, there eventually comes a time when it takes something more than self learning.

Thus, though the lesson plan is a great idea in theory, I could really only use it to learn....what I already know. That brings up the obvious problems:

1) Do I know what I should?
2) Do I know it correctly?
3) Am I applying it correctly?
4) If I know and apply ideas correctly, am I making too many other mistakes, and if so, what are they?
5) If other mistakes are occuring, what is needed to fix them?

These questions are difficult to answer from an internal perspective, and perhaps an example from my world might change the way we are attacking this discussion:

When I work with patients on Depression / Anxiety or other issues, I often ask / pseudo-insist that they bring someone they trust with them. As we discuss the patient's situation, not only am I learning about their difficulties, but I am hoping their companion is as well. After we formulate a plan (therapy, medications, etc.) I turn to the companion and ask that they "keep an eye" on the patient and accompany the patient at the next follow up visit. Almost invariably at the follow up, when asked, the patient relates "some" improvement (assuming the therapy is effective) but the companion is practically jumping up and down about how well the patient is doing, as they are so impressed by the changes they see.

What this has shown me over and over again is that it is very difficult for us to "see" ourselves. Thus, it is sometimes difficult to assess ourselves objectively.

Back to this discussion, though we talk about winnings / BB won per 100 hands, etc., these are gross yard-sticks. We have all seen good and bad runs. And, yes, in the long run, these tend to even out, so eventually winnings MIGHT be a useful tool, but by then we may have picked up some very bad habits, or worse, when things do even out, we find that we indeed have so many "holes" in our game that we are in fact losing players, or at least not as effective as we might be.

This, I guess, is the crux of the actual discussion in my mind. Not only "what does it take to be a great player?", but also, what does it take to LEARN to be a great player?...i.e. how do you make sure it is effective learning that is occuring while you put in the time to gain experience?

Thoughts are appreciated.

And, as always,

High blood sugar gets you in 20 years, low blood sugar gets you today.

Fammy

deadmoney314 · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: Hand Histories

One simple guideline I tell people starting out is to be decisions orientated instead of results orientated. If you consistantly make good decisions, you will eventually win in the long run. And that is a mark of any great player...

When you finish a hand and you have hand histories available, look back at what happened on each betting round and see if you made the right play. If not, ask yourself some questions. Why did you not make the right play? Is the information you gained from this experience useful for the future?

As far as encompassing all the possible situations in texas holdem, good luck to you. I hope you have a supercomputer because in a ninehanded game there are "52 choose 23" ways to have a hand play out. If you can't use excel or a calculator to try to figure what that number is, ask a stat or math guy how big that number is and you will quickly get a laugh. There are quite a few miracles, bad beats, and altogether mind boggling situations that can be produced from so many permutations.

Also, imho stats begin to settle in at 10,000 hands and don't change much all the way through 100,000 hands. And BB/hr and std deviation of BB/hr tell A LOT more about a player than how much $$ is in the bankroll. A bad player could have one lucky session at a high limit and flush half of his winnings over the next year at a lower limit--if you tracked his stats you would quickly see more information about him than just looking at his $$. And vice versa, you could have a good player that takes shots with insufficient bankrolls at higher limits (or lays it all on the horses after a win) and is crushing the game but keeps giving up his/her profits. If you take a look at his stats, again you see a different picture than the overall loss of bankroll.

Anyway, once you see that you are consistantly making not only good decisions, but better decisions than the opponents at your limit--you will see your bankroll ledger post in black ink more often than red. Some of it can be taught, some of it can't, some of it can only be learned through experience and seeing situations over and over, and for some players... even luck is an art (last quote stolen from "The Color of Money").

AlexScottUK · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: Re: A Philosophical Discussion

KGBlovesOreos · Moderator Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 5318 Location: VA

in response to "what does it take to become a great poker player?"

i think there are probably many things that factor in into becoming great... all the basics you wrote in your original post are certainly the building blocks to reaching the highest skill level, but i wanted to throw in a few more aspects of great poker players...

1. They all learn from their mistakes- i know this was already said previously, but nobody included "they dont make the same mistakes again"... anybody can learn from their mistake, but if the dont apply it, what they learned was useless...

2. Discipline- I believe it was jaconda who said that this virtue was among all the poker greats... i agree with her 100 percent... you need to have disciplines in different aspects of poker: hand selection, bankroll management, table selection, the ability to take crap from other players, knowing when to quit when you're ahead/behind... discipline is needed in each of these aspects of poker

3. Drive- if you get bored with playing poker after a four or five hour session, you shouldn't aspire to become a great player... playing poker is VERY hard work, and you need to put in hours of work just as you would if you were at a job... if you're the type who tends to get bored real quickly while playing, you cant be a great player...

4. Focus- watch phil ivey's eyes next time you see him play... what is he constantly doing? watching everything, thats what... he is the most focused player out there, and it is a key ingredient to his success... he is always trying to acquire information on his opponents, and even if it may not be of consequence in the immediate future, he will certainly use it against you sometime down the road...

5. Ability to want to learn- Even the greats are always learning something new just about every day... not only do they learn something, but they WANT to learn something new every day... I have a friend who has built his bankroll up to the level that is sufficient for the $5/$10 cash games, but whenever i have some new theory/play that could be helpful to his game, he shuns me and basically tells me "nah, i dont really need it... if i'm doing well now, why would i want to tweak my game?" because of this, i this know he can never be a great player because he doesn't want to acquire new knowledge... a poker player should become a sponge, acquiring new strategies/theories whenever they can... the more you learn, the more weapons you have in your arsonnel of plays, and the more well-rounded you will become...

LimpinAintEZ · Guest

SatchDork · Full House Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 245

Had comments about a few of the recent posts, but rather than quote and comment individually, I'm going to try to fold it all into one post. Hopefully I won't ramble too long.

I think we're all in agreement that experience is king in terms of becoming a good/great player and developing ALL the traits necessary to succeed (good post, KGB). I think what the books, coaches, and other "instructional aids" provide is a frame of reference to which you can compare your real-life experience. You'll hear a lot of your favorite "veteran" pros (your Seidels, Lederers, etc.) talk about how tough it was for them coming up because they had ONLY experience to go by. There wasn't a David Sklansky section at Barnes & Noble for them reference like there is now. Smile

They had to make the same mistakes over and over again before they even realized it was a mistake. . .and THEN they had to try to figure out a way to fix it. Nowadays you can learn from others mistakes more easily (by reading about them, etc.), identify mistakes in your own game more quickly, and find a wealth of knowledge about different approaches to fixing those mistakes. As I said, experience is certainly king, but it you'll learn much more quickly if you have a "baseline" to compare your experiences against.

This leads me to another point about "situational awareness" that some people have mentioned. Again, this is something that comes through experience, but, also again, it is something the "instructional aids" can give you a leg up on. Someone pointed out just how many possible combinations of cards there are in poker and how impossible it is to learn how to play in every individual one. However, the combinations often fall into similar "categories" and these are what the books teach you. Certainly not all draws are created equally, but they have certain things in common. It's better to learn some of these through books and videos, and then LOOK FOR THEM at the table, than to learn merely by stumbling through them when you finally encountered each specific one.

I guess my point is that the best way to learn is through a synthesis of methods, with experience being the centerpiece. It's the same for anything. You don't become a better baseball player by ONLY going to the batting cages or ONLY playing catch or ONLY playing in games. You do ALL of these things and the end result is a well-rounded, reasonably talented, always-improving/evolving baseball player. So I guess really there isn't an "end result," but a constantly evolving one.

One last comment in response to LimpinAintEZ's post. At some point poker does come down to "feel," especially when played at the highest levels. What allows great players to "play on instinct," however, is everything they learned through experience and other methods. They've seen the situations played out at the table and read all the books so many times that correct play has become second nature to them. The key is that they put in the time and effort to develop the instincts. When I'm about to tee-off on the golf course, there's a million little "tips" running through my head. Tiger Woods does NOT have the same internal monologue going that I do. . .not because he isn't aware of and considering the same factors I am, but because he's done it so many times he doesn't NEED to think about the same things I do. At least not consciously. Those simple things have become second nature. This is what all apsiring poker players must work towards.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

I'm just scanning this (I'm on vacation), so forgive me if I say something that was already mentioned. I think discipline is the single greatest requirement to become a great poker player. The discipline to study, to lay down good hands, to play within your bankroll, and to stay alert at the table. The skills can be worked on, if you have the discipline to master them. The rest is up to you.

Pokit2s · Message Board Junkie Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 1261

Well, discipline, hard work, focus, and everything along those lines seem to be the reoccuring themes here. One thing that no one has really seemed to mention is a love for the game. Sure, the best poker players in the world are disciplined and focused, but you also have to enjoy the game and not do it JUST for the money. I have had more fun playing $5 buy in games with my buddies than I've had winning $200 in an online game. Say what you want, but if you arent having fun when u play, you will never be a world class player.

KGBlovesOreos · Moderator Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 5318 Location: VA

jack-actionhero · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject:

I love it too. Live MTTs are my current favorite flavor.

I travel around my local area and hit 3, sometimes 4, per week. I've only won 1st place one time but I love the competition and the idea that no matter what my cards are, I can make him think I'm the luckiest guy in the world. The occasional showing of bluff cards, the rare showing of pocket rockets or cowboys, all just to twist my opponents' minds into frustrated steaming knots as they watch their stack of chips get stacked in front of me.

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