Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

fammy · Pair Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 21

Good morning / afternoon / evening / night all...(depending on when you read this).

I am hoping to start a thread that will have multiple answers and possibly spark some real discussion. I am hoping that everyone from Pros (and yes, I hope the Pros from FTP read and comment, cause I know I could use it) to Newbs weigh in so that we might ALL learn something both about the game we seem to love, and maybe about ourselves.

Please indulge me for just a second as I hope that by including just a little about myself, dear reader, you might get a slightly better understanding of where I am coming from, and hopefully see how this might affect the answer to the question I have yet to pose. (By the way, at least from my end, I would appreciate if others listed just a little about themselves, so that we might also see their perspectives.)

I am a physician who has been playing low / mid limit poker online over about the past 8 months, primarily in ring games, but occasional tournaments. I have a SLIGHT win percentage, but no where near what I believe it should be according to everything I have read. I have read MANY books on poker, both limit and no limit (Sklansky Theory of Poker, Hold Em for Advanced Players, Low Limit....Jones Low Limit...Gordon Green Book... Burton Get the Edge, etc...) and feel that limit best suits my personality. I am looking actively for ways to improve and "plug leaks". My goal is to one day be good enough to win a WSOP limit bracelet, but that is a goal and as it is said, it is the journey, not the destiniation.

So...here is the question:

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO BECOME A TRULY GREAT POKER PLAYER?

I know the standard answers: Patience, Discipline, Play Smart, Play Aggressive, Learn to Put Opponents on Hands. These are all good and solid responses, yet there must be something else. I am actively looking for that something, and I am hoping that by discussing this...and if all goes well...at great length, we might all be able to walk away with something, whether it be about the game, or maybe even about ourselves (now wouldn't that be a nice by-product).

Thank you in advance for any thoughts you have and I look forward to the ideas that are/will be presented.

And just remember...

High blood sugar gets you in 20 years, low blood sugar gets you today!!!

Fammy

Moshiach · Message Board Junkie Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 2119

Play a dick load of poker.

Jaconda78 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177

Sorry, but I'm gonna give you one of the standards. I feel by far the most important trait of a great poker player (and one most college students lack) is discipline. You have to have the discipline to apply all you learned in those books, the discipline to stop when you're losing, the discipline to pick yourself up and get back in the game after a horrible streak of cards.

Kloaked Spirit · Royal Flush Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 869

Since you're trying to plug leaks, get pokertracker if you haven't already. It's ability to show you useful statistics makes it one of the most useful items in an online-poker player's arsenal.

For your question though, there are many things that can separate the pro from the standard player. One of these things is the "value" of money.

*Side note: I'm using occam's razor here, don't get on a tangent about the random opponent.*

For example, imagine if you're in a $10 pot, and someone bets $5 into you. You aren't quite certain if the two pair you have is good. Would you still call the $5 bet?

Now, imagine you're against the same opponent and the exact same situation described above, except that it's now a $26,000 pot and the opponent made a $13,000 bet. Would you now call this $13,000 bet?

Well, if you planned on calling the $5 bet here, and all else being equal, you should call that $13,000 bet. It's the exact same risk/benefit ratio, and there's nothing different about your situation except for the amount of money involved. Makes sense, right?

Yet there will be people that cannot bring themselves to call that $13,000 bet. There's too much "value" in that $13,000 for them. For them, they'd see it as a car, or a nice down payment on a luxury item. They couldn't bring themselves to put that much money on something they're unsure of. A professional would be able to take away this "value" of money and not have it sway from them making the correct play.

deadmoney314

8 months may feel like a long time but it is infancy for a poker player. You can�t even know if you are a winning player yet�bad players go on winning streaks that show them positive after a year and good players go on losing streaks that show them negative after a year. As someone said, get poker tracker and find out what your BB per 100 hands or BB per hour is. After you do that, find out what your variance in BB per hour is and we can start to get a picture of your play.
Good luck, sorry to be negative for a moment, but WSOP limit bracelet may not even be possible and if it is, there is a very very long road ahead of you. Also reading all those books is great for anyone considering poker as a hobby, but 8 months is not enough time to implement everything you have learned from those books in live play. True understanding of the concepts in those books come from adding a little bit of what is discussed in those books at a time and trying things out�at a slow pace. Again, not trying to be condescending�you are a doctor and I�m sure you have a higher learning curve than most. Just beware that there are millions of new players that read all this material and try to put too much of it in their arsenal too quickly and players like me that have the experience and understand these concepts beyond the beginners comprehension will eat you alive and take the profit that you absorb off the weaker mass. This is a leak of your profits but everyone starting out pays forward to the better players. Just try to make sure you are at tables where you feel like you are better than half the players (or better yet 75% of the players).
There are secrets to this game that no one in their right mind will give away for free if ever. Just the nature of the game, you don�t tap on the aquarium. Most people don�t mind discussing whats already widely available knowledge to the fish starting out because the fish rarely makes use of it and/or doesn�t make a big enough difference in their game to cause any concern for the shark. If anything it makes the fish meatier by the time they reach us. One of the top things you can do to become better is honestly sizing up your competition. Poker tracker is a great help for this, as it tracks every player that you come in contact with at the tables. If you are a long term loser against player W, X, Y & Z and they are all sitting at the table you are planning to play--don�t play. This concept can be used at any level of the game you reach�don�t challenge the strong players, challenge the weak ones�that is where your profit comes from (and that�s where your profit leaks too if you don�t heed this warning). In any case, I hate to start quoting Rounders like a noob, but it is said best there, �if you can�t figure out who the sucker is in the first half hour at the table� you ARE the sucker.�

Gypsydc · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject:

That's a tough question to answer. How do you define "truly great"? If you mean great, as in becoming a pro...I think there's a lot more "business" to it than actual poker ability. I'm not saying the pros lack poker ability...the pros are loaded with that...Maybe it'll be easier if I use an example.

A college friend of mine made it into the NFL (from a D3 school). When he came back to visit the school after training, we were all very excited to hear his stories. He had plenty of good ones to tell but he stressed how different it was from what he had expected. He said it was more like a business rather than playing football in that, while you had to have athletic ability for the game, you also had to be in the right place at the right time with the right people. If you look at the top players in the NFL -namely the retired ones - what are they doing now? They are commentating, coaching, etc. The point is, although these were top players athletically, they're making big money in a sense, outside of the game. They had/have what it takes...people like them...they know it's a business, they're motivated, and they went that extra mile.

I think poker is like that too. There is, especially now, quite a large pool of talent. But as I said, it's more than that. It's business and you need to have a sense of that to succeed in the poker world. You have to have the talent, but you must get in with the right people, be in the right places, and have...not sure what word I'm looking for...charisma?

Now to get more philosophical...what is that special "something" someone has that makes them intriguing enough for a company like FTP to want to stake them? There are certain pros more people take a liking to...what is it that they have? I suppose the "it" is different for everyone but the "it" is a factor. I know I'm intrigued by Chris Ferguson and Jennifer Harman. Why? Well, I met Chris, but I also like his calm and collected nature (maybe I like that because this is how I perceive myself to be). As for Harman...I don't know...I think she's cute and I like watching her play so maybe that's the whole "attractive people" phenomena.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that (another analogy): There are a lot of "psychics" in the world...but what in the hell makes Sylvia Browne so damn successful and famous?

Now I'm getting very caught up in my own writing (in an attempt to solicit discussion) so maybe somebody else would like to take it from here...

fammy · Pair Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 21

The comments I have read are just the kinds of things I was hoping to see. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Just a couple of responses:

First, I did not put up the post with the idea that I would come up with the "magic" answer to becoming a great poker player. I agree with Deadmoney that 8 months is not a lot of time...I did not expect that it was, but there are 2 things I ALWAYS tell my students, and I believe that they are life lessons, not just applicable to medicine:

1) Doctors are NOT smarter than most people out there, we just tend to be able and willing to put up with more crap.

2) It is very difficult to unlearn bad habits, so it is much easier to learn to do it right the first time.

With that in mind, the real purpose of my post is more to try to put myself on the right path, rather than to become an overnight success. I realize that these days the information I have gone through is a good starting point, but it is just that. Just as in my day to day life, there is no substitute for time and practice (thus the PRACTICE of medicine....scary thought...and one of OUR closely guarded secrets....we never REALLY get it 100% right). I am looking for the pieces to develop good habits to become a solid player. Then, I expect the "correct" winnings will follow.

As for pokertracker...that seems like a great idea. I have been using notes and hand histories, but trying to keep them in order and useful has to say the least been a challenge.

Finally (at least for this post...I hope to keep this discussion going)...I also agree that nothing in life is free. We all have our gifts, and I have been told I am a fairly decent Family Medicine physician. I have been known to give "direction" in the form of medical advice (though I do need to make it clear...it is ONLY advice and there is no substitute for being seen by a live doctor should the need arise). I also tend to believe in the barter system. So.........(anyone who might be able to help me should be smart enough to fill in the gap Wink

)

Thank you for your thoughts, and I look forward to any others that might appear.

And just remember...

High blood sugar gets you in 20 years, low blood sugar gets you today!!!

Fammy

deadmoney314 · Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: Beginnings

A good first step would be to read all the posts in this limit forum if you have not already. Then come back with questions or even post your own comments in the threads. You'd be surprised how many people have time to respond on this forum and should get decent feedback.

"Who's the more foolish; the 'fool' or the fool that follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi

griffinlord · Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject:

You are playing on pokertracker so I won't repeat that advice. I will comment on effective reading and practice.

Like you I am well educated (Ph.D.) but have trouble at the tables despite reading all of the books. What I have found is that no one gets all of the information the first time through. They have to constantly review and practice.

For example, you certainly took several courses in Med school in which you memorized certain truths about biology, medicine, and other related topics. Yet you did not go from the books to independent practice. You had to learn to apply all of that knowledge you'd aquired from the books and classes in the clinic/hospital while being supervised by a practicing physician. I'll wager that during this period you were hitting the books again to go over information that you'd already learned but forgotten or not properly understood until you began working with real people.

Approach poker the same way. Mix reading/review with play. Work on one or two aspects of your game at a time. For example Small Stakes Holdem is broken into preflop, postflop, turn, and river play. Read the whole book and start playing as well as you can given what you remember--you should be about break even to slight positive at this point.

Go back and work on one aspect of the game. Maybe preflop. Reread parts of that section of the book until you have them memorized in practice. Then start working through postflop play (actually this is where I would start, but the example still makes sense) go over chunks of this section until you've achieved a high level of proficiency post-flop.

Repeat with turn and river play.

Mixing study with practice is the most effective means of improvement. It is best when you can work on practicing one or two things at a time.

SatchDork · Full House Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 245

SatchDork · Full House Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 245

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:40 am Post subject: Quote

I believe my point was you want to be better than half or more of the players at the table you are sitting to post a profit in the long run no matter your skill level--not to start a thread on where the quotes in Rounders originate from =P You can be the 9th best player in the world, but you will be a losing player if you always sit with the 8 better players than you. Put that in your pipe and...

SatchDork · Full House Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 245

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: posting junkie

I took the tone more as sarcasm rather than being facetious, but now I feel like a noob--I just didn't want the noob that I was replying to miss my point so I reinforced it--and missed your joking tone like a noob. At this point though, I guess I'm just upping my posts like a forum noob. 8)
In any case, at my B&M you hear lots of Rounders quotes from the noobs and it gets really old which is why I felt a little bashful quoting it. It gets pretty old to hear "vant a cookie?" or "this kids got alligator blood" etc for the 4 millionth time.
What ever happened to the rumors of "Royal Flush" Rounders 2? j/k

SatchDork · Full House Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 245

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