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Riddim
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Griff, do you have AIM? I can try to go into teacher mode if you send me a message (riddim 83). |
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deadmoney314
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| griffinlord wrote: |
| deadmoney314 wrote: |
| If someone wants to count the combos i think its 5 for every pocket pair (unless one of the cards is on the board) and 16 for any unpaired hand but you will have to keep my hole cards and the board in mind. |
6-ways for a pocket pair with no cards accounted for.
3-ways for a pocket pair with 1 card accounted for.
1 way for a pocket pair with one pair accounted for.
Unpaired hand are 16, unless you need to seperate suited/unsuited then you get 4 and 12 respectively.
With one card of an unpaired hand accounted for there are 12.
with one of each accounted for (eg, AK) there are 9 remaining possiblities for AK. If two aces are accounted for there are 8 AK possibilities.
The simple fact is that I can count it out myself, but I am well past rational when it comes to playing AK when I miss the flop. I really, really want some hand holding.
It would be extremely helpful if someone could talk me through this particular hand in little baby steps. Even better if they can tell me how the play would change against a 35/30 or 60/20 player.
Not that I don't appreciate DM's links, but I've read a significant fraction of them already and am at the point where I need to start looking at individual hands in some detail. This particular hand is perfect because to me it looks awful, but others are saying DM played it just right. (Maybe I'm too used to games that are substaintially looser than DM is playing--.25/.5 6-max games are typically around 50% - 60% seeing the flop, although they occassionally drop into the mid-30% range. How do the 1/2 games compare?)
I know that DM doesn't do "teacher mode" well, at least not on the forums. Is there someone who can slip into teacher mode and step me through this hand in excruciating detail?
If not, I'll do it myself. |
There are 165 combos from the hand range I mentioned. 90 of these have us ahead or tied (AK) on the flop. That's more than half the time we are ahead or tied, and the times we are behind, we usually have a draw except against the most premium of villain's holdings, not that we need that to proceed. Remember this is a conservative estimate because I took the raising range of a 15% pfr player and this is a 20% pfr villain. For the question of how does the play change against a 30% pfr just imagine that villian is raising a broader range of cards which will intice you to feel even more ahead. In other words, as villain's range increases, so does the chance of you being good here.
This means there is even a good argument for raising the flop, but again, when my holdings are weak (A-high) and I have a chance at being good, I let aggressive opps bet my hand for me. The turn card does not improve many of villain's holdings except for a chance to tie which is an argument to raising the turn. You could argue either way but my way I don't commit more chips when weak than I have to and it often leads to villains 3 barreling while behind which is something I don't want to interrupt. This is often something players will do with AF >1.75, if they get no resistance they will bet UI through the river.
That being said, you will not find yourself in this position as often as you think. I erred in not raising preflop but in real time errors do occur and you have to figure out what to do next.
Beyond the combos, did you have other questions griff? It seemed like a vague, "I get stuck in close situations" comment/question. Post some HH w/stats and maybe we will get somewhere. |
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griffinlord
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| Griff, do you have AIM? I can try to go into teacher mode if you send me a message (riddim 83). |
Appreciate it, but no AIM. |
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griffinlord
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| deadmoney314 wrote: |
Beyond the combos, did you have other questions griff? It seemed like a vague, "I get stuck in close situations" comment/question. Post some HH w/stats and maybe we will get somewhere. |
Not right now...I just wanted to understand the full & detailed logic that went into playing this hand post-flop. I think that will help. |
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deadmoney314
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| griffinlord wrote: |
| deadmoney314 wrote: |
Beyond the combos, did you have other questions griff? It seemed like a vague, "I get stuck in close situations" comment/question. Post some HH w/stats and maybe we will get somewhere. |
Not right now...I just wanted to understand the full & detailed logic that went into playing this hand post-flop. I think that will help. |
I'm not certain what's missing here. I'd like to think that I can count combos in my head but the truth is unless you have some helper program that can do this, you will have to estimate irt. These estimates are quantifiable to a degree but pretty much all the time you rely on your experience to guide you and do analysis afterwards to see how accurate you have been.
In this particular hand I know my opponent is aggressive enough to bet air UI, this is a common thing at 1/2 and especially lately it has been a 2+2ish garden. I'm not sure if this is because people have cashed out their rolls like me and still want to play or if its just the fish dying out. Seeing a full table of 25/17/3 & 30/20/2 is a common occurance and makes for a difficult game. Bonuswhores even has ftp listed as C- which is two partial grades lower than when I moved here. If you have a choice, stick to UB as I think their games are rated better, but its best to check bonuswhores yourself to find the best grade for your limit.
Back to strategy, in small pots HU I focus on moves that I believe will extract value instead of focusing on winning the pot. This is why I was hesistant to take an aggressive line after my mistake preflop, I am in position with a good chance of the best holdings and I have an aggressive villain who is OOP. I don't want this hand to end on such an unthreatening board, the pot is not important enough for me to go to war with A-high so if I get the feeling that I'm ahead I will not scare my opp out of the pot. I want him to commit more attempts UI with a worse hand which s/he is likely to do. The only real question I see is what I do if I spike the turn, is it time to raise then? I think so but I'll let others offer opinions on that point. |
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griffinlord
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| deadmoney314 wrote: |
| griffinlord wrote: |
| deadmoney314 wrote: |
Beyond the combos, did you have other questions griff? It seemed like a vague, "I get stuck in close situations" comment/question. Post some HH w/stats and maybe we will get somewhere. |
Not right now...I just wanted to understand the full & detailed logic that went into playing this hand post-flop. I think that will help. |
I'm not certain what's missing here. I'd like to think that I can count combos in my head but the truth is unless you have some helper program that can do this, you will have to estimate irt. These estimates are quantifiable to a degree but pretty much all the time you rely on your experience to guide you and do analysis afterwards to see how accurate you have been.
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I didn't say anything was missing in your most recent reply. I was however sloppy in making clear that I only had a few moments to reply before running children off to piano lessons and otherwise not being able to seriously consider your most recent explanation until sometime today.
I have printed off the previous response and will work through it as time permits.
I agree that none of us can count combos at the table. But what we can do is excrutiatingly detailed post-mortems to see if our on-the-fly thinking is working like it should be. What I was asking for previously, and you may have provided--I'll let you know when I actually read it---is the excrutiatinly detailed post-mortem.
The detailed working through of an example hand is very useful to me. I don't typically need lots of them...just one or two where I can really, really think about it in depth. As I said, this was a hand where I believe that such detail would be very useful to me. Hence my frustration at generalized comments like "you are ahead more often than behind." While I understand that particular comment, I couldn't "see" it in this hand.
Part of the problem is I don't think the typical players I see are as tight as your villian. (Yes, I just called your villian tight. I play with people who call a raise and reraise from the bb with 7-4o --and in this case turned a full house to crack my pocket aces.) Since the "Any face or ace" crowd would play K-8o as a strong hand preflop, I think I fold the turn in your example hand. But, your villian isn't as loose/.......****, I'm late |
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griffinlord
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Back now..
But your villian is tighter than most of my opponents, so the hand does play out differently than I am used to. As I mentioned, most of my opponets consisider K-8 to be a big hand because there is a K. They also love mid-connectors (suited or otherwise). By going through a detailed analysis of this particular hand I think I have a lot to gain. Stuff that will allow me to make better on-the-fly decisions once I get the mental work done. |
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deadmoney314
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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If only we all had extra time to disect our play thoroughly for every session.
To go further with my train of thought that this analysis has sparked, very often I will play a 15% pfr, nothing special its the vanilla flavor Mr. Wookie (with a few minor adjustments). I do this because I see generally 18-25% at this limit currently which doesn't necessarily make them loose in the normal sense of the word; it is a different kind of loose than Mr. AnyAceOrFace.
It means that you can still put them on a tight range of hands but they will include offsuit high connectors, and generally weaker standards for an open raise (and typically very aggro in the blinds).
Further, being in so many situations with these types of opponents has given me experience on what works against them. The current trend for me is that I let them bet inferior hands without raise/re-raising as long as the board is non-threatening (i.e. no obvious straight draws/flush draws). As you have no doubt heard and experienced, its hard to hit flops and HU so against an aggro opp you will encounter "air" wars (both of you betting and/or raising air).
Please note this line applies only if opp's AF is quite high, the reason being is that you want your opp to continue to bet his inferior air that he would have folded to a flop raise. I change my line whenever the board gets slightly scary like three to a flush on the turn or a broadway card hits and I don't have it, this goes more into reading board texture. Here is some tentative advice for these situations (i'm not certain that I follow it to a T) try to make sure there is at least one bet on each street. So if your opponent isn't betting, you are. Rinse repeat 1000 times and you should net money against everyone with a looser pfr% barring any extreme variance or extreme difference in postflop play.
It is this change up and deception which offers my aggro opp to commit mistakes and many times it allows me to manipulate my opponent later. I encounter a breaking point on an opponent where s/he realizes that three barreling is losing money or at the least frustrating against me. Once I see an opponent adjust to this I can begin making plays like betting K high on the turn to take pots and very possibly fold opps better hands.
In other words, there are metagame considerations to getting to showdown against slightly looser and aggro opponents early on. Not only will you have a hand that fairs better than theirs in the long run because of a tighter preflop selection, you will gain this psychological advantage everytime you W$SD--sort of a wearing down of your opps mind.
Last edited by deadmoney314 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deadmoney314
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I just wanted to add why I thought this hand was interesting in the first place. Because of my departure from normal play preflop, my hand strength was extremely disguised. However, I doubt I'm going to employ calling AKo pfr as part of my normal game even to mix things up. |
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griffinlord
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Location: The Great Plains of South Dakota
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Still no chance to read in detail. Looks like it might be saturday/sundy before I have enough time to go over what you've been writing. |
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