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deadmoney314

Villain is 26/20/2.3

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
5 players

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with ac kd
UTG raises, CO folds, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 3s ts 8h (5.5SB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 8c (3.75BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: ah (5.75BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 7.75BB

Normally I advocate raising big slick here 100% preflop, for some reason I cold call. How bad is this even though the results were happy? Is this bad? What did villain fold here? Comments welcome.

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject:

This is more of a general rambling about the hand, I don't know where I'm going with it (probably nowhere) and a conclusion is unlikely:

OK, am I right in assuming your figures are VPIP/PFR/AF here? And is your AF post flop or all inclusive?

20% PFR really jumps out at me as a bit too lag here. Maybe not 9 handed, but my next question revolves around your stats and whether the af is postflop only. If it's all inclusive then a af of 2.3 with a 20% pfr just screams bad postflop play and I like the idea of a smooth call for an attempted trap, particularly as you have position.

But IMO, smooth calling with AK is something best done when you're fairly sure your opponent has a weaker but still strong ace. I expect it's harder in 6max as ranges are much wider, but in full games I can spot AJ a mile off. So if you suspect he may have an Ace, I like it.

But back onto the actual hand. I would have raised the flop here almost certainly. As it is, I have no idea where I am in the hand, and I want to find out. Villain obviously has a wide range for preflop raising, so I want to try and get a little extra about what he might have.

In short, I think your smooth call preflop is an acceptable variation play, but the lack of information it creates must be made up elsewhere.

As for what he had, I would go with KQ or KJ

deadmoney314 · Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:

I always post stats vp$ip/pfr/AF (post flop)
The variation just jumped out at me at the time. Afterward my guess was a KX maybe even suited or the standard PP. 20% pfr is loose, but not excessively in my experience and I usually don't see out of the line UTG raises from this player or players with similar stats.
I like the flop raise idea except that it prevents weaker aces or hands like KX from continuing to bet my hand for me and I was thinking, if I'm ahead I'm way ahead, if I'm behind I'm putting in the minimum.
If you raise on the flop and get called, what is your line for the turn whether villain donks or not?
What if villain 3bets flop, do you fold turn UI?

bigwheell · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:39 am Post subject:

I can't see not raising preflop here, you are letting the blinds in too cheap(how many times have you lost to a 10-8 when the BB is getting 5.5/1). I like calling in this situation from the blinds, but not from the button. Many times you have his holdings dominated and you can play the hand out exactly as you did and raise the river with your AK holding up on a board like that.

With the Villians PFR% at 20, the person raises just about everytime he enters the pot, so I would expect him to raise with any two when he comes into a pot, that 6% difference could be from Checking the big blind or completing from the small blind.

I think you ran into one of those players who will bluff on every street trying to push you off a hand. I think that is the only way he could fold that river with your raise back at him. The pot is too big not to call off one more bet if you have even a bottom pair.

Here is another scenario...New player(former NL player), he a bit over aggressive, and not used to 6 max limit play where you cannot push a player off a hand with a 1BB bluff.

After the preflop call, I would have probably played it as you did. I would definatly raise with that river A.

How do you play a maniac? Bet less often and call more often(I do not know who to credit that saying to). There was a good chance you had the best hand and if you didn't have the best hand, you more than likely had outs to the best hand.

Minus the preflop call, I think you played it alright.

xxlurchxx · High Card Joined: 03 Sep 2006 Posts: 15

if you have been playing at this table for a while and know who plays what I don't see a problem mixing it up here and just calling a raise with the AK. You can't become too predictable and this is the first thing that comes out with all the tracking software thats around. I'm guessing KQ for his hand as that would be worth a raise 5 handed, and explain his folding to the river A.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:

griffinlord · Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject:

Somebody do me a favor....

Playing big aces as drawing hands is driving me crazy.

Let's try and specify a legitimate range of hands for villian to be raising with UTG. Even 5 handed I'm pretty tight UTG and DM is likely drawing very, very thin against me in this position.

So, why are we putting villian on hands like J9 or even KJ here? Would he really play them for a raise UTG? His stats aren't all that loose for 6max and DM says that he never really gets out of line.

For that range of hands how often is DM ahead on the flop/turn?

deadmoney314 · Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject:

griffinlord · Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject:

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8062 Location: Sweden

Griff, we don't have to eliminate the hands that beat us, they just have to consitute less than about 87% of his range when he bets the river since we're getting 6.75:1 on our money here. On the turn we're a slight favorite over a reasonable 20% PFR range, so even if we weight that quite a bit in his favor to take into consideration that he might not raise quite as many hands as that UTG and won't always fire again with hands that we beat, we should have enough equity here to call down.

griffinlord · Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:22 am Post subject:

deadmoney314 · Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject:

Griff, assuming this player probably knows 6max baby steps and this basic strategy which gets you to ~15%pfr:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1897985&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

His range will be a little looser ~5% than AA-44/aks-a8s/probably a7s-a2s/ak-a9o/kqs-k9s/kq/kj/qjs/qts/jts Remember I said looser

We are a favorite here with AKo and I should have raised preflop for value it was a mistake but in real time I had to move on with the hand. The strength of this hand postflop was good enough for me to call but not raise UI which is something I don't mind against players with AF so high. Why scare an opponent from betting your hand for you when you will be good more often than not?

griffinlord · Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject:

deadmoney314 · Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject:

If someone wants to count the combos i think its 5 for every pocket pair (unless one of the cards is on the board) and 16 for any unpaired hand but you will have to keep my hole cards and the board in mind. I'm still fairly certain that not only are we ahead more often than not but even if we aren't we have odds to improve to make up for any shortcommings. Also, you may have noticed I took the range from vanilla hijack raising standards instead of UTG because it is 5 handed.

It is extremely frustrating for people to be value/donk betting bottom pairs like 3s into your pfr'es postflop but this is where situational reads come in. If you feel this is an area where you have room to improve, go back to 1 or 2 tables, it is hard to improve in this area 3-4 tabling. Also learn the WA/WB line if you are frequently on aggressive or maniac type tables where you are often in marginal situations OOP.

Actually get lost in these threads for a good week, they explain this stuff better than I ever will:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=micro&Number=2913856&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8857864&an=0&page=0#Post8857864

griffinlord · Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject:

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