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fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: Overplaying speculative hands?

A question for deadmoney and any other limit players out there. I wouldnt normally play J8s from EP, but I was at a strange table where each hand would either be raised and everyone folds, or someone limps and everyone limps, so I felt like joining in the party.

But, flopping middle pair on a ragged rainbow board was the check/call the right action or should I have check/folded? I was thinking the board didnt look too dangerous and with 5 outs (88JJJ) I thought I had the odds/implied odds to see another card and make 2pair or trips. I felt that given the board, if I hit I would have the best hand.

Is this correct or is this *another* one of those leaks in my game that needs fixing?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) from (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Idiot is MP2 with J

, 8

.
2 folds, MP1 calls, Idiot calls, 2 folds, Button raises, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Idiot calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8

, 4

, K

(4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Idiot checks, Button bets, SB calls, MP1 folds, Idiot calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9

(3 players)
SB checks, Idiot checks, Button bets, SB folds, Idiot folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB

So um, unleash the madness...

relaxedriley · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:02 am Post subject:

The first problem is the J8s I realize that the table is full of limpers but this hand just spells trouble. If you hit top pair you still don't look too good, if you hit a flush there could easily be a better flush out, and with a two gapper you wont make a straight very often. Toss the thing in the trash without any hesitation especially from EP. Now to the hand. If you think the button is just making a positional raise than go ahead and call him down. As far as taking one off to try to hit 5 outs, I personally don't do it. you waste a lot of bets that way. I don't think you hit often enough to justify the single call unless the pot is huge.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:03 am Post subject:

I'd say J8s is extremely borderline and most likely a leak here. I could see an argument if you have a read that you have a great chance at seeing the flop for 1sb, but as you can see you had to pay a full bet and you don't want to make that a habit. In addition, open limping with weak hands invites position raises that give you the most difficult decisions on what is probably a favorable flop for you. This doesn't mean never do it, just be certain you feel like you "own" the people behind you left to act, because it is a lot of position deficit you have to make up.

As for the postflop play it depends a lot on what you know of the button, without knowing his stats or background this decision is pretty much impossible to make. If it is early on and no reads I will probably lean on him having nothing often enough to checkraise the flop for more information, but throwing this away isn't a huge mistake on the flop or turn. I can see button having a range of hands that beat you, and at the time you need to make a check-raise on the flop, the SB has followed in complicating things.

Do this to mix up your game, not because you are bored and want to join in the action. In addition, make sure you have solid reads to give you reason to do this at minimal cost (or just ditch this completely). Lastly, review HHs for similar situations and take a look to see if you have enough to analyze EP/MP open limps and the success/ROI.

griffinlord · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:38 am Post subject:

Thanks for posting.

I overplay weak hands too often. When I'm running hot I get away with it and actually turn a profit. But when the cards are normal...well, let's just say that it isn't so profitable anymore.

I'm thanking you 'cause it is soooooo much easier to see how poor a play it is when I look at your HH than when I look at my own. I know I sit there and take one off on hands like this and just don't see the leak. But I look at your HH and I want to scream at you.

Shall we race to see who fixes that leak first?

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject:

griffinlord · Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:11 am Post subject:

griffinlord · Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:32 am Post subject:

blkhwk67t · Full House Joined: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 172

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