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relaxedriley

when first sitting down at a table, is it more profitable to pay the BB when you first come to the table or wait for the BB. I understand the logic of waiting in order to see how others play, but I was wondering if anyone has an idea about the EV implacations of the subject. Of course knowing how the other players play will improve your ability to win more, but that during that extra time do you guys find you typically make more money than you lose putting in the BB or lose more than you gain. I dont mean whether to put in the BB in early position because you obviously lose money doing that, but what about one off the button? Two off?

ridic x · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:36 am Post subject:

Shorthanded always wait. If it's full table and the button has just passed you I don't have a problem with posting.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:23 am Post subject:

I recall a cardplayer article where someone actually did a thoughtful analysis of posting out of turn. Maybe try searching the archives there?

davidjag · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:11 am Post subject:

personally, i usually wait until it is my natural turn to post the BB, but on those rare occasions that i don't it's like ridic said... full table and and i can post in late position.

btw, this article touches on that subject too:

http://www.launchpoker.com/rocky-raise-poker-101/-should-you-post-your-blind-immediately-/

griffinlord · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:54 am Post subject:

When you post a blind you are betting without seeing your cards. There is simply no way this can be +EV. If you post from the CO position you do gain a bit from being in positions, but even with position how much can you do with 4-7o?

I used to post and play asap but that was costing me bets without a reasonable return. Sure, every once-in-a-while you wake up with a premium hand, or on a passive table catch a great flop, but long-term you are just putting dead money in the pot for your opponents.

Online the hands are played quickly enough that you can wait. And players come-and-go so often that you can't develop a table image to exploit later.

B&M you may be able to gain from appearing to be too stupid to know that you should wait for your BB. Especially if you follow up with some pretty loose play for an orbit or so. You'll give a first impression of someone who came to play and have fun. It will take a while for good players to notice that you've tightened up after the furst orbit and the recreational players may never notice.

clussman · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:23 am Post subject:

I always play the first hand when I sit down at a table, including SNGs and MTTs, so I have no problem posting the blind the second I'm in my seat. I hope it does create an image. I especially hope I hit the flop card with two crappy cards and that it sticks out in someone's mind because I don't normally play crappy cards.

But that's really just a rationalization for the fact that I'm impatient and I am too stupid to know better. I'll post the blind from pretty much anywhere on the table just so I can start playing. It's a one-off situation for the entire session and I guarantee you I'll make worse mistakes. Yeah, it's definitely -EV but I also play because it's fun.

I'll probably be (rightfully) flamed for my position on the subject.

Only thing I found on Cardplayer was this: http://tinyurl.com/y9kdve

And that's actually in Google's cache. Cardplayer didn't seem to have it anymore. It's just a forum thread like this one where everybody agrees to wait for the BB before posting.

Paprika · Full House Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

On line I usually try and wait but B&M I act like I'm not sure what's going on. It can add to your image a bit.

bigwheell · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:56 am Post subject:

I agree with Griffenlord on this. It is not like at a B&M when you have to wait 20-25 minutes for the blinds to get back to you if you show up at and sit down on the button or C/O.

I have started to wait for the blind...Post ban, just about every pot is raised on here and I just end up giving away too much money...It seems that too many times I end up folding a non-playable hand and losing a buck while doing so...

Since I bought poker tracker a 10 months ago, I have played 387 sessions...Look at that as roughly $250 that I spent, with my play split between .50/1 and 1/2 on posting blinds out of position...

That is alot of money to be throwing away when you do not have t...

Tytch · High Card Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 8 Location: England

I always wait for the BB to come round to me, as many here have stated, it's like spewing chips without need. I take that orbit to see who is at the table and get an idea how the table is playing. Even when i return from an AFK i will wait for the BB again instead of posting the big & small, most of the time anyway Smile

dmoore1998 · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject:

Actually there WAS indeed a cardplayer article a while back advocating posting if you can do it right behind the button. In these situations you post only the BB and not a dead small blind. The basic premise of the article is this:

10-handed table, no ante, hypothetical blinds are 5-10. If you wait for the big blind to get to you then you are posting the bb and sb to see 10 hands. $15 total for an average cost of $1.50 per hand.

If you post one behind the button you are seeing 7 hands for that one bb of $10. That works out to $1.42 per hand. (8 cents isn't much advantage, but you're also in late position)

Anywhere else and it's not as profitable to wait, if you're one off the button it would actually cost you $1.66 per hand.

Now 8 cents and 16 cents aren't that big of a deal really because you're only getting the advantage that first round of hands, but basically the premise is if you're close to the button like that, posting there isn't really any different than coming in on the big blind, other than the major advantage of putting your money into the pot like that and still being in late position.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8490 Location: Sweden

Posting the big blind in the CO here on FTP is actually neutral when just considering the cost per hand. This means that it should have a positive expectation if you're a winning player, since you will show a profit on average during the extra 6 hands you get to play. After the CO, your average cost per hand goes up by a fraction of a big bet for each step closer to the big blind you get.

Since the regular cost per hand with a 0.5/1 BB blind structure can be described as (0.75BB/X), where X is the number of players at the table, the difference when posting early can be described as (0.5BB/X-Y)-(0.75BB/X), where Y is the number of hands less than a full round that you'll be dealt. To figure out if posting would show a profit, just add your BB/hand for the relevant positions to the difference in cost. If the result is positive, posting is profitable even without taking any positive effects it might have on your table image into account. Please correct any mistakes you find in this post. I suspect there will be a few since I've hardly thought about poker for the past week.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject:

Wow, that was extremely insightful. Would anyone care to do the math of what profitability (or winrate in BB/100) you would have to have to be profitable in the cutoff? Does anyone have a conversion for 6max tables? How about a chart that shows by position the profitability you need to break even on posting?

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8490 Location: Sweden

bigwheell · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject:

I tried to take a look and see if there was a way to filter my stats from PT for my blind posting, but I was not able to find anything...

I am far from a mathman, so I will probably be of no further use to you guys in this thread...

deadmoney314 · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject:

That would be cool, or you join me on the 1/2 i'm about to play. If you do the charts I'm interested in the point at which you no longer make profit and if there is a way to convert this for 6max (like Button - 3)

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