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GoldenDomer9 · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: How bad did I "F" this up?

Full Tilt Poker Game #1153196447: Table Kris (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - Limit Hold'em - 19:14:19 ET - 2006/10/26
Seat 1: GoldenDomer9 ($12.20)
Seat 2: knitter ($5.40)
Seat 3: snowmann35 ($33.25)
Seat 4: JUGGERNAUTKING ($2.25)
Seat 6: lukylady2 ($10.40)
JUGGERNAUTKING posts the small blind of $0.10
lukylady2 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GoldenDomer9 [Td Ah]
GoldenDomer9 raises to $0.50
knitter folds
snowmann35 calls $0.50
JUGGERNAUTKING calls $0.40
lukylady2 calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Ac Kh Ad]
JUGGERNAUTKING checks
lukylady2 bets $0.25
GoldenDomer9 calls $0.25
snowmann35 folds
JUGGERNAUTKING folds
*** TURN *** [Ac Kh Ad] [4c]
lukylady2 bets $0.50
GoldenDomer9 calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [Ac Kh Ad 4c] [2h]
lukylady2 bets $0.50
GoldenDomer9 raises to $1
lukylady2 raises to $1.50
GoldenDomer9 raises to $2
lukylady2 calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GoldenDomer9 shows [Td Ah] (three of a kind, Aces)
lukylady2 shows [2d 2s] (a full house, Twos full of Aces)
lukylady2 wins the pot ($7.15) with a full house, Twos full of Aces
newponic sits down
GoldenDomer9: OMG
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.50 | Rake $0.35
Board: [Ac Kh Ad 4c 2h]
Seat 1: GoldenDomer9 showed [Td Ah] and lost with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 2: knitter didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: snowmann35 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: JUGGERNAUTKING (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: lukylady2 (big blind) showed [2d 2s] and won ($7.15) with a full house, Twos full of Aces

Ok, I should've just called the last bet on the river instead of capping, but am I a super donk here? After he bets out @ me, I figure if I raise I'm only going to win 1 small bet, so I'm trying to say that I have a K or something like QQ or JJ. The turn seems harmless too, so I feel like I can get him to bet the river, then raise.

Did I get unlucky, or do I need to play this differently?

UFO1947 · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject:

I just had a similar exprience at the 1/2limit tables

the only thing i can think of is maybe a reraise on the flop, but then you would have lost your customer.

I call it limit bad luck, I find people (myself included) get in the habit of saying it's just one more bet.

bigwheell · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject:

A little bit unlucky and a little under aggressive if you ask me.

If it were me, I would have raised the flop and led the turn betting. You may not have gotten the person with Pocket Two's off his hand, but you would at least have charged him maximum to draw out on you. IMO, any K or PP is probably going to see the river with you acting so passive on this hand.

Another thought...With you calling and not raising, you may have convinced him that you missed the flop and he thought his 22 was good.

You win smaller pots on flops like that with your holdings, but I think it is better than being passive and losing on the river.

GoldenDomer9 · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject:

Well, my intent was to make him think 22 was good. I could've probably taken the pot with a raise on the turn, or maybe not. But I got greedy and wanted that 1 more bet from him on the river. Ah well, live & learn I guess.

sloshedzeus · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject:

I think you may have gotten about as much in the pot as you could have up until the river. A raise on the turn and a bet on the river would have worked better with your trying to get that extra bet in there because if she didn't catch her two outer she might have just checked the river.

You were able to get action with a dominating hand, which is what you want to do, so there was no real bad play here in my opinion.

Next time you are up against someone named lukylady2, and a 2 comes on the river, take it as an omen. Laughing

HalfStackStu · Pair Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 26

I think you should have raised on the turn. It put a flush draw out there and another straight draw. If someone was on some kind of draw, they probably would have called your raise to see the river. They're gonna miss those draws about 4 out of 5 times and not give you another bet on the river. So, raising on the turn in that situation will give you an extra bet (roughly) 4 out of 5 times. The one time out of the 5 that they make their draw you might lose an extra bet to a raise. That means you get a total of 3 extra extra for every 5 times you raise on the turn in that situation.

If someone has ducks and they fold to your raise on the turn, that's fine. They were probably just going to check and fold on the river anyway, had you just called. Those ducks are only going to hit 1 out of 23 times. You still only get one bet 22 out of 23 times whether you call or raise.

It is much more likely that you will be up against one of the drawing hands that I mentioned. Whether they have a decent draw or a longshot you are praying that they will call your raise - you will get extra bets. If they don't call, you probably weren't going to get any more out of it on the river anyway.

Edit-

Oh yeah: BAD BEAT! BAD BEAT! Ouch.

TedyKGB17 · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject:

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject:

I'm always raising the flop here, and capping if re-raised. You have to realistically think that KK is not out there and you still have a redraw if it is. AK is a HUGE stretch and you need a capped flop to begin to convince you that the possibility exists.
If you have a read on the BB as insanely aggressive, raise the flop and if there is a 3 bet from the BB, smooth call with intent to raise the turn--you will know better if they have you beat with a 3 bet from them on the turn to which you can start to go passive but showdown.
There is room for trickery in poker, but in general you want to play your strong hands strong unless there is a good reason not to, otherwise you will fall into the famous fancy play syndrome (FPS--look up Mike Caro articles on analysis).
Waiting until the river to get aggressive is usually not a good idea especially in 6max where people are playing a more liberal selection of hands (even the tight players). You get just as much value on the turn since the bets double and aggression with made hands are a must on the turn to charge the maximum against draws which people will chase.
Just my 2 cents, otherwise you did get unlucky since you were 95% on the turn and deuces was charging himself/herself for their 5% draw.

griffinlord · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject:

HalfStackStu · Pair Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 26

bigwheell · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject:

In that situation, my finger wouldn't be able to press the call button if I was holding A10 in that hand.

I am putting in raises whenever I can with a flop like that. If they go away on the flop or turn, so be it. That is how I play...

You have to be aware of the information that you are giving your opponents as well when you slowplay. Most good players are always updating notes on your play and that information can save or win you lots of money in future confrontations.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8153 Location: Sweden

This seems like an easy "ram-and-jam until you meet some real resistance"-hand to me. There's no need to slowplay, you're just giving up bets that people give you because they either don't believe that you'd raise with an ace, or because they can't fold anyway. Besides, you're probably going to need to raise that flop with some weaker hands at some point. That gets a lot tougher to do if your opponents know that you'll slowplay an ace.

HalfStackStu · Pair Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 26

There are a lot of factors that come into play. You have to consider whether those people left to act might call 1 bet with a weak draw but fold to 2 bets, or will they call any amount of bets with any draw? Will they fold a king to a raise, but call for 1 bet? Are they tight enough that by calling a raise you can definitley put them on an ace? These are the things you also need to think about for the original better.

In a generic situation, in which you don't have any of this information, the best way to maximize your profit is to just call and hope the people behind will call with a weak draw. Think about it. The only draw on a AAk rainbow flop is a very weak draw. Who is going to put 2 bets in on the flop with a gutshot when the pot is laying them 6 to 1 odds and the board is paired? Only the rarest of maniacs. But there are a ton of players who might think, "Well, it only one bet." On the turn, the original better might just bet into you again. If you raise the flop, you might chase everyone out of the hand, even the original better. Then, you would have no chance of gaining extra bets from what are almost certainly horrible longshot draws.

And wouldn't it be nice if that QJ hit the T for the straight.

In his situation, the players behind didn't call one bet. However, just as planned, he was bet into again on the turn. Calling here wasn't such a bad play, but as I said, raising would have been better. The turn did bring some draws, and there was only a slim chance of gaining an extra bet on the river.

Also bigwheel, here's one thing you should think about: if you never slowplay your trips, your opponents will know that you are incapable of it. In poker, you want your opponents to think you are capable of anything. They will know a check or call means that you don't have trips! You want them to think that a check might mean you have trips, that a bet might mean you have trips, or that a raise might mean you have trips - or that you might have nothing. You want to diguise your play so they won't know what you have.

bigwheell · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject:

I guess my theory on 6max play is a little different than yours.

I know that my play is not perfect at 6max but I am having fun with it and I am +BB/100 hands so it seems to be working. I realize that I will have to change my playing style as I move up in levels, but for now it seems to work.

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