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GoldenDomer9 · Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: Help me Limit Guys

Tonight's my first night giving Limit a try. Did I play this ok? Do you guys bet the river here? If I did, would he fold? I'm thinking not if he called me the first two streets, but I really don't know.

Full Tilt Poker Game #1140288886: Table Ringe (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - Limit Hold'em - 21:28:03 ET - 2006/10/23
Seat 1: lilbulldog69 ($13.60)
Seat 2: GoldenDomer9 ($24.80)
Seat 3: spurtledoo ($6.60)
Seat 4: JoeStassi ($5.70)
Seat 6: rswheels ($9.40)
spurtledoo posts the small blind of $0.10
JoeStassi posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #2
echodude sits down
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GoldenDomer9 [Qd Kd]
echodude adds $5
rswheels folds
lilbulldog69 calls $0.25
GoldenDomer9 raises to $0.50
spurtledoo folds
JoeStassi calls $0.25
lilbulldog69 calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [8d Tc Jc]
JoeStassi checks
lilbulldog69 checks
GoldenDomer9 bets $0.25
JoeStassi calls $0.25
lilbulldog69 folds
*** TURN *** [8d Tc Jc] [Td]
JoeStassi checks
GoldenDomer9 bets $0.50
JoeStassi calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [8d Tc Jc Td] [4h]
JoeStassi checks
GoldenDomer9 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GoldenDomer9 shows [Qd Kd] (a pair of Tens)
JoeStassi shows [6c 6s] (two pair, Tens and Sixes)
JoeStassi wins the pot ($2.95) with two pair, Tens and Sixes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.10 | Rake $0.15
Board: [8d Tc Jc Td 4h]
Seat 1: lilbulldog69 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: GoldenDomer9 (button) showed [Qd Kd] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 3: spurtledoo (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: JoeStassi (big blind) showed [6c 6s] and won ($2.95) with two pair, Tens and Sixes
Seat 6: rswheels didn't bet (folded)

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject:

No you don't bet the river. He called your every bet, and the 4h on the river isn't likely to have improved your hand, or made his any less valuable. From the betting pattern it looks like you're beat, so save yourself a big bet.

You can't bluff as much in limit, barely at all in the micros.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:

Agreed, he's obviously not someone to try and bluff. Nothing really wrong with the way you played it, just make a note and don't bluff next time.

GoldenDomer9 · Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject:

Cool. Thanks guys. I just saw him flip over 66 and was like.... huh? I have a lot to learn here.

bigwheell · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:50 am Post subject:

Playing at .25/.50, it is very hard to represent a hand that you do not have...Every once in a while you can get away with it, but you have to have been beating up the table to get away with it. People have to be afraid of calling your bets.

I know this has been said before, but straight up poker and generally playing fit or fold poker and chasing draws when you have the right odds will win you the most money at the micro's. Most other players are not aware enough to pick up on your fit or fold betting patterns and you will do pretty good.

griffinlord · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:08 am Post subject:

Actually, I think I'm taking the free card on the turn and fold the river unimproved. At this level a lot of players will call down with pocket 3s or A high, both of which beat you.

Limit is much more of a showdown game, if you can't beat A high, don't bet the turn or the river. Especially against this type of opponent.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:31 am Post subject:

I like griff's line here but betting the turn is not without merit, you just have a reason and a plan if you bet turn. If you want to bet the turn you should be prepared with what you think your opp has if he raises at that point so you know what outs you can aggress with on the river in addition to what outs you should call on the river too--if he just calls the turn I think you should be betting the river. If you aren't prepared to do either of those lines, then you should be taking griff's line for the above stated reasons.

One more point here, KQs is a strong hand here but I would argue just calling preflop unless you have history with the limper playing weak holdings. Although the cards would have been different, imagine the difference of a flop and turn bet from you had you limped, I think 6s has at least a tougher time making it to the river in that scenario. One strong reason 6s called down is s/he can more easily put you on AK/AQ/KQ often enough.

Otto410 · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:29 am Post subject:

The other reason you got called down (in addition to no A or K on the board as GriffinLord stated), is that the flush and (realistic) straight draws missed. Sure, you could have been playing Q9 or 97, but not many would play those for a pre-flop raise.

To the 66 player, you could have had a set, A10 or AJ, but there was a greater possibility of you having AK, AQ or the straight or flush draws. So, there are more concievable hand that you had that he could beat versus the hands that beat him.

I would have check/called you down as well. If you would have shown A10, I would make note of it and be more cautious with you next time. He could have check/called for no other reason but to see what type of player you are.

GoldenDomer9 · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:37 am Post subject:

I had a profitable session @ FLHE last night, but I think I'm going to have to read up on it or something, because some of it is just not sinking in. When I turn the str8 flush draw with two overs, it doesn't even cross my mind not to bet that in limit, as it's not like I can get check-raised off my hand like in NL. This grasshopper has much to learn guys.

I am going to continue working @ it though, because hands like my set of 9's I posted in the Ring Game session playing NL are starting to make me sick, so this feels like as good a time as any to broaden my horizons. Thanks all for the continued help, I will most certainly be needing more!

bigwheell · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject:

From Deadmoney...

One more point here, KQs is a strong hand here but I would argue just calling preflop unless you have history with the limper playing weak holdings. Although the cards would have been different, imagine the difference of a flop and turn bet from you had you limped, I think 6s has at least a tougher time making it to the river in that scenario. One strong reason 6s called down is s/he can more easily put you on AK/AQ/KQ often enough.

Deadmoney makes a valid point here and this is something to think about in your play. Granted this is only one hand, but it is something that you should think about...You have to be aware of your past play and what you have shown down to the table in prior hands. Remember that we can see second best river hands in the hand history as well.

In this same situation if I were playing against you, I would have probably checkraised on the turn and bet the river. I would be thinking that you missed the flop. If you three bet the turn, it would give me cause for concern, but I would still go to the river. If for nothing else than for information to be used later on how and why you played the hand that particular way.

One thing that I think can help you(when I mean you, it is players in general) is to open raise with a wider variety of hands. This benefits you multiple ways in that it generates uncertainty in other players as to your holdings, you get paid off nicely when you flop big hands with your weaker opening hands, and you also have the ability to win the pot when you both flop nothing by betting out and taking down the hand...

Playing 6-max, I think that I open raise with such a wide variety of hands that it is tough to put me on two cards preflop most of the time. I tighten up my raising quite a bit when there is a raise in the hand before me, but I still three bet quite a bit in 6max with my stronger hands. I think that I play fairly strong post flop and can handle seeing more flops with weaker cards.

I am roughly 35% VP$IP in 6 handed so I do play pretty loose.

Comments or critisms are welcome, because 6-max is my second game. I normally play full ring and I may be giving out poor advice.

AllInDrawinDead · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject:

If there's any chance that you can win the pot with a bet on the river you should bet. However, chances are that you won't win the pot with a bet in this cae. It's unlikely that he's on a draw because you're the one on a draw. The most likely holdings for your opponent are a weak pocket pair or an A high and he has already shown a propensity to call. There's nothing wrong with your flop bet and there's nothing wrong with your turn bet this time. Next time however you should not make that bet. By making the bet on the turn you gained information about what kind of hands your opponent is willing to call you with. If he stays at your table that information you paid for will pay for itself. Now you know he is loose/passive and you should know exactly how to beat him. I should add that at this limit, you are rarely going to win the pot with a bet on the turn so I would save the semi-bluffs for another game.

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