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Kos13
Royal Flush
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 835
Location: .50/1 - 2/4 NL
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 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: Bad Call or Good Read? |
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I was playing in a SnG tournament, and each of the first two hands were check min-raises where the original better folded. I had been the folder in the first hand, and I had guessed the raisers hand correctly as I folded. He was impressed, and we started talking about the hand. The next hand, the guy to my left (RoostaDaNeezy) got check min-raised by someone else at the table, and he folded what he said was a decent hand. RoostaDaNeezy then got involved in our conversation, and I got the impression that he was fairly tight. I lost about half my stack on a big confrontation, but I had just doubled up, putting me at 1520 in chips. However, because I had already played four (?) of the first nine hands, I probably appeared to be much looser than I actually am. I didn't make a continuation bet on the flop for this very reason. My previous continuation bets had been raised (and I had folded), so I decided not to try it in this situation. This is the tenth hand of the tournament...
Full Tilt Poker Game #555110906: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (3631361), Table 1 - 40/80 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:20:45 ET - 2006/04/09
Seat 1: LymanZyrga (1,590)
Seat 2: ironcav (1,895)
Seat 3: 5th5k (2,140)
Seat 5: twoharts (2,200)
Seat 6: Kos13 (1,520)
Seat 7: RoostaDaNeezy (1,215)
Seat 8: holler house (2,190)
Seat 9: mcgrupp (750)
RoostaDaNeezy posts the small blind of 40
holler house posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kos13 [Jc As]
mcgrupp folds
LymanZyrga folds
ironcav folds
5th5k folds
twoharts folds
Kos13 raises to 200
RoostaDaNeezy calls 160
holler house folds
*** FLOP *** [7s Kc 7h]
RoostaDaNeezy checks
Kos13 checks
*** TURN *** [7s Kc 7h] [5s]
RoostaDaNeezy bets 275
Kos13 has 15 seconds left to act
Kos13 calls 275
*** RIVER *** [7s Kc 7h 5s] [Qh]
RoostaDaNeezy bets 740, and is all in
Kos13 has 15 seconds left to act
Kos13: this is a bad call
Kos13 calls 740
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RoostaDaNeezy shows [Th 8h] (a pair of Sevens)
Kos13 shows [Jc As] (a pair of Sevens)
Kos13 wins the pot (2,510) with a pair of Sevens
RoostaDaNeezy stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,510 | Rake 0
Board: [7s Kc 7h 5s Qh]
Seat 1: LymanZyrga didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: ironcav didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: 5th5k didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: twoharts didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Kos13 (button) showed [Jc As] and won (2,510) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 7: RoostaDaNeezy (small blind) showed [Th 8h] and lost with a pair of Sevens
On the turn, I decided he had nothing. I figured he didn't have the king because he would have bet on the flop if he did have it, or he would have checked again if he was slowplaying AK. Rather than raise him all-in, though, I just called and assumed he had Ax (with x being lower than my jack and not a 5 or a 7). I wasn't 100% sure he was bluffing, and I didn't want to risk all my chips on it. Had he checked on the river (which is what I was hoping he would do), I would have checked as well. Yes, I risked him catching something on the river, but I decided I could live with that more than I could live with risking all my chips on a raise on the turn. However, I decided on the turn that if he did push on the river, I would call. When he bet on the river, I knew I was going to call, so taking that much time and saying "this is a bad call" was really just to make me not look as bad if he turned over something like A7.
Kos |
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Kos13
Royal Flush
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 835
Location: .50/1 - 2/4 NL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't fit the rest into one post...
This knocked him out of the tournament, but he stayed in the chat window, and he kept telling me he was "playing the player" because he had seen me fold earlier and assumed I was tight (which I am). He said it was a bad call, and he said he'd note me as a donkey so he could play me again. That doesn't bother me...I'm just wondering if you guys think this was a bad call. He called my raise from the small blind, and since he was tight, I assumed he was playing A-x, a low pocket pair, or two high cards. He absolutely could have had a hand like 66, A5, or A7 (fearing the two spades on board). Do you think this was a bad call where I got lucky that he was bluffing, or was it a decent call based on his possible holdings? Also, do you think I should have just raised him all-in on the turn?
Kos |
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emoney_33
Full House
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| you called off 2/3 of your stack with ace high. IMO this was just luck on your part that he had nothing. Unless you had some read on him that you didn't mention, it was a bad call IMO. If you thought he was bluffing on the turn bet why not raise him to find out rather than just calling, hoping he is bluffing AND hoping he hits nothing on the river. And then with no further information call a bet of more than half your remaining stack |
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dose160
Pair
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Nunya Bidness
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: |
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I think this was a bad call. You said on the turn you decided he had nothing. If this is the case you have to raise. Calling the raise was just a bad move in this spot if you know or have decided your opponent has nothing. On the river it was just a bad call. Since you gave him credit for being a tight player, give him credit for making the right move by raising enough on the river to push you off of your hand. Your hand can only beat an absolute bluff. Calling off more than half of your stack in hopes your right isn't the right play here. I've had similar situations as yours and in those situations, unless I have an excellent read on my opponent, I fold and wait to pick my spot with a much more legitimate hand. late.
Mo skazy
Last edited by dose160 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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caribstv
Pair
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 39
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| dose160 wrote: |
I think this was a bad call. You said on the turn you decided he had nothing. If this is the case you have to raise. Calling the raise was just a bad move in this spot if you know or have decided your opponent has nothing. On the river it was just a bad call. Since you gave him credit for being a tight player, give him credit for making the right move by raising enough on the flop to push you off of your hand. Your hand can only beat an absolute bluff. Calling off more than half of your stack in hopes your right isn't the right play here. I've had similar situations as yours and in those situations, unless I have an excellent read on my opponent, I fold and wait to pick my spot with a much more legitimate hand. late.
Mo skazy |
I watched a call like that on ESPN this weeknd.
Anni Duked went all in the 2004 Main event
and the dude called her with Ace high on the flop (only he could have beat was a bluff, which it was)
and knocked her out |
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sensaike
High Card
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you knew he was bluffing for sure. It was a great call!. But if you where just hoping he was bluffing. It was a dumb call. And he should put you on the donkey list. I would to.
You where assuming so it was a bad call. You dint know for sure he was bluffing. Like you said you had decide he was bluffing. You dint know he was bluffing. Big different, and that's whom you call a "fish" (you).
You got lucky and that may have won you some money that time but it won't in the long run. I would have fold on the turn when he bet 275 or I would have re-raise. Either you fold on the turn if you thought he had something or exploit it if you thought he was bluffing. Make him pay if you sense weakness and don’t let him have a free look at the next card. That’s just giving him a chance to beat you. |
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Kos13
Royal Flush
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 835
Location: .50/1 - 2/4 NL
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Looking back, I'm not crazy about the way I played it on the turn. However, I was very confident he was bluffing. If you look at it, there really aren't any hands he could have that fit his betting pattern.
A-7, 55: Would he really bet so hard on the turn AND the river if he wanted me to call?
KK, AA: He would have re-raised preflop.
AK: Would he really check the flop? Would he really go all in on the river since I could easily have been slowplaying A7? He also would probably re-raise preflop.
AQ: Would he really go all in on the river since I could easily have been slowplaying A7 or AK?
66-JJ: Would he really bet so hard on the turn and the river?
I agree that the correct play was to raise him on the turn, and that's what I would do about 99.9% of the time. I don't really like the way I played the hand, but I think the read I had made sense. There was no hand that beat me and fit his betting pattern.
Kos |
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Notorious_JL
Straight Flush
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 382
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: |
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as in many poker situations, this was either a horrible call or a fantastic one, LOL.
JL |
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dose160
Pair
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Nunya Bidness
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| caribstv wrote: |
| dose160 wrote: |
I think this was a bad call. You said on the turn you decided he had nothing. If this is the case you have to raise. Calling the raise was just a bad move in this spot if you know or have decided your opponent has nothing. On the river it was just a bad call. Since you gave him credit for being a tight player, give him credit for making the right move by raising enough on the flop to push you off of your hand. Your hand can only beat an absolute bluff. Calling off more than half of your stack in hopes your right isn't the right play here. I've had similar situations as yours and in those situations, unless I have an excellent read on my opponent, I fold and wait to pick my spot with a much more legitimate hand. late.
Mo skazy |
I watched a call like that on ESPN this weeknd.
Anni Duked went all in the 2004 Main event
and the dude called her with Ace high on the flop (only he could have beat was a bluff, which it was)
and knocked her out |
And I'm sure Annie Duke couldn't believe the guy called her with Ace high. late.
Mo skazy |
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emoney_33
Full House
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Kos13 wrote: |
Looking back, I'm not crazy about the way I played it on the turn. However, I was very confident he was bluffing. If you look at it, there really aren't any hands he could have that fit his betting pattern.
A-7, 55: Would he really bet so hard on the turn AND the river if he wanted me to call?
KK, AA: He would have re-raised preflop.
AK: Would he really check the flop? Would he really go all in on the river since I could easily have been slowplaying A7? He also would probably re-raise preflop.
AQ: Would he really go all in on the river since I could easily have been slowplaying A7 or AK?
66-JJ: Would he really bet so hard on the turn and the river?
I agree that the correct play was to raise him on the turn, and that's what I would do about 99.9% of the time. I don't really like the way I played the hand, but I think the read I had made sense. There was no hand that beat me and fit his betting pattern.
Kos |
If you have been paying attention to his play and can answer those questions with confidence about your specific opponent, then it's a good read. If you answer those questions with no knowledge of your opponent and instead answer those questions based on what you think a player should (or most would) do then it's a bad call.
A read is only good when it's a read on your specific opponent not when it's just a guess of how your opponent would bet based on what you believe makes sense |
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EzmoneyDRE
Flush
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 133
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| It might have been a bad call on the river but congrats on you going with your gut. It paid off, forget about it, do it again if you feel its the right move. You should always go with you gut opinion it'll win you more money in the long run. |
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Crimson Pride
High Card
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it was one of the dumbest calls a poker player can possibly make(note that I said the call was dumb, not you). In my mind, it wouldnt have been a stupid call if and only if you were ABSOLUTELY possitive he was bluffing, and you werent, because you said you werent 100% sure and then called a guy you say you gave credit for being tight! I believe that the correct play would either be to fold(if you are as tight as you say you are and he was as tight as you thought he was) or RAISE(if you were convinced[100% sure] he was on a bluff) to shut him out of the hand and preventing him from sucking out on you at the river. |
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arsenal46
Straight
Joined: 05 Aug 2005
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Well, after hours of evaluating this particular hand, i decided it was a bad call considering in the HH you said and i quote "This is a bad call". 
pure luck there, a good read is when you are confident you know you have him beat because of a particular tell or betting pattern, you sounded 85% sure you did not have the best hand and just called for the heck of it. You are telling yourself now it was a good read because you had him beat, but remember.. hindsight is always 20/20 |
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AllInDrawinDead
Royal Flush
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 580
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: |
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This is not a limit game where you can call down if you think the player is bluffing. This is no limit. You have to shut a guy out of a pot. If you think someone is bluffing and you don't have anything either then just raise him and take the pot away. You can't keep calling large bets and give him chances to spike a pair on the river. This was one time where you got very lucky. Even if someone has "nothing" there is always a chance that their nothing is better than yours and that they would have thrown it away if you had bet or raised.
If you make calls like this regularly, you are a calling station and you are indeed a fish. If you always play like this, I would like to play you every chance I get because your money is just sitting there waiting to be taken. |
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Kos13
Royal Flush
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 835
Location: .50/1 - 2/4 NL
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: Re: |
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| AllInDrawinDead wrote: |
| If you make calls like this regularly, you are a calling station and you are indeed a fish. If you always play like this, I would like to play you every chance I get because your money is just sitting there waiting to be taken. |
This is probably the only time in my life I've EVER made a call like this. In fact, I posted this because it was so out of the ordinary for me. The "this is a bad call" line was used more to save face than anything else because I couldn't believe I was calling an all-in with ace high. It sort of reminded me of Lederer's "best hand I ever played" where he played the turn and the river very similarly. I don't remember the whole hand, but basically, he had pocket 3's, and Chan was betting hard into an overcard-overcard-4 board. The turn was a 2, and Lederer was sure he had the best hand. He just called, and the river was another 4 (obviously a good card). Chan put him all-in, and he immediately called, beating Chan's bluff.
The difference is, of course, that Lederer said he was sure he had the best hand, and I was probably only 90% sure. Still, that was enough for me on this particular hand (I mean, how can you ever be absolutely sure until you see their cards?), and I decided on the turn that I was willing to risk all my chips on the hand. However, I didn't want to, which is why I didn't raise him on the turn. This is the mistake I made, and I regret not putting him all-in before the river. I'm not defending my play at all because it was poor...
HOWEVER, that is not what this post was about. I know I made a mistake on the turn, and that's why this hand is drawing so much criticism. But I was looking at it like this: if I check the flop and just call on the turn, what the hell can he put me on? AK? A7? There is no hand that fits his betting pattern if he's a rational player (and after talking to him in the chat before this, I was confident that he was a tight, decent, rational player). Let's say he spikes a ten on the river...would he honestly bet all of his chips on it with two overs, two sevens, and my betting pattern? It just doesn't make sense if he's a semi-decent player.
There is NO hand that fits his betting pattern other than a bluff, right? That's what I'm asking, not if I played the turn badly...I know I did. My conservative nature got the best of me, and I messed up. However, I think my read (not my play) was spot on, and I think there was good reason behind my thinking. If someone can figure out what hand beats me AND fits his betting pattern, that's what I'd like to hear. I'm trying to figure out if my read was flawed and I just got lucky that he didn't have me beat, not if my play was flawed (because we all already agree that it was). In other words, would it have been smart for me to raise him all-in on the turn, or should I have played the hand differently?
Also, a plea: I made a mistake on the turn, one that I have never made before and never will again. I decided he had to be bluffing, I was very confident I had the best hand, and I didn't expect him to bet on the river. Yes, I should have raised him on the turn, but I made a mistake. I'd hope that you all can realize that it was just that - a mistake. I'd appreciate not being considered a fish for a single mistake I made. I'm a very good, very tight player who makes a lot of money in poker. I'm sure all of you have screwed up a few times, too, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to be judged base solely on one bad hand, so please just keep that in mind.
Kos |
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