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matt2411 · Royal Flush Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 559

the only reason to play suited connectors is because of your draws.

the power comes from being able to utilize your straight or flush draws.

however when half your draws will get you into huge amounts of trouble... thats an issue, which is why playing suited connectors at micro limits is a massive problem.

So say you have 5d6d. and 1 opponent has Kd3d playing for ONLY for a flush because he's that big of a donkey.

if you have no flush draw capabilities you toss your hand which is why suited connectors are great, very easy to fold. But if you're consistently going up against 2 larger suited cards you are going to lose your ass, because you will not only be calling trying to hit that draw but you will go broke when you do hit it. Playing at normal limits most people wont call or limp with any 2 suited cards, but at the microlimits this is commonplace.

Riddim you sound like you are playing your cards and not your opponent. In this case you are playing against herds of donkeys. And you dont win by ignoring people's flaws. if you know people are playing any 2 cards and will chase any draw for nearly any price, you do *not* want to play draws, you want to make them pay to draw, and play much tighter. And why even RISK your whole stack when theres a very good chance that you could be drawing to a smaller flush, and end up costing yourself your whole stack.

if you cant utilize all aspects of your cards, you dont play them... its that simple ... adhering to that will save you money.

Riddim · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:03 am Post subject:

There's one thing you're forgetting, and it's a pretty large factor here. Most of the time you won't be up against a bigger flush draw, and your flush will win the pot. Playing against bad players only increases the benefits of playing drawing hands, since you'll get paid more frequently once you hit. Off course you're going to have to be careful drawing to a non-nut hand when you're up against four opponents that could have any two cards, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't draw when you're getting the right price. Do you really think that somebody will make a bigger flush than yours even close to half the time?
I don't doubt that playing very tight will win you money at the microlimits, but I strongly doubt that it will win you more money than playing a bit looser. You can't take advantage of your opponents' tendencies to call you down with trash to the fullest if you're only in the pot when you have a big hand. As I said in my previous post, I think you need to get your money in the middle with the worst of it a bit more often. Most micro players will have a pretty wide range of hands when they go all-in, and folding when you're getting odds to call just because you think you'll lose a lot of the time is playing scared.
As for playing the cards instead of the player, that is quite the opposite of what I do. I'm usually extremely careful when it comes to playing suited connectors against unknown players, since I don't know if they'll pay me off. Just out of curiosity, would you call off 100BB getting 2-1 if you think you're behind about 60% of the time?

edit: Noticed that i missed the question "Why ever RISK your whole stack when theres a very good chance that you could be drawing to a smaller flush, and end up costing yourself your whole stack". There's a pretty obvious answer for that one. I think it's +EV.

matt2411 · Royal Flush Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 559

Im not going to argue with you, You can play with suited connectors all you like.

However, when i talk about winning at microlimits and small stakes NL - I do know what I am talking about.

dmoore1998 · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:54 am Post subject:

From my own experience one of the quickest ways to blow through your chip stack is to draw to a hand, hit it, then have someone hit that same card for their own (better) draw. Obviously more often than not when you hit your flush with your suited connector it's going to the only flush out there. But at the micro limits where everyone wants to see the flop, then anyone with a draw wants to stay in to try to hit...it's just generally not worth it. You're already paying people off when you flop a flush draw but never get there (you'll only get there about 1/3 of the time)...now combine only hitting your draw 1/3 of the time, then some of those times your draw isn't even a winner, and the times your draw isn't a winner you are probably paying someone off quite well since you just made your hand and putting in a big bet or raise. Actually one of the best ways to double up playing the micro limits is playing ace-rag suited and hitting your flush, someone with a smaller flush is almost always going to double you up which just from my estimation seems to happen about 1/4 of the time (sorry, no stats here, just what my general observation seems to be from people showing down hands when I have the nut flush).

I'm sure one of you math guys can figure out the odds that someone else is going to have a flush also, the problem is the other person with the flush is generally playing a higher flush because everyone at these levels plays the K-rag and Q-rag suited.

If you figure it all out mathmatically it's probably still going to look like a good idea to play them, the problem is that the times you hit your flush you may not cash in much because everyone knows that people are chasing flushes at this level and will fold. Then when someone has the higher flush you're going to end up paying them off.

Also it can be hard to even get good odds to chase your flush, so many people seem to limp in creating a small pot initially then just start pushing all-in on the flop or completely overbetting the pot which gives you improper odds to draw at them.

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