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gho · Straight Flush Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 391

Just wondering if this was a bad call (or maybe I played the whole hand poorly) in a recent tournament I played in. I had a stack size of just over $25,000 with blinds at 400/800 and a $75 ante. On the button I picked up Jh9h. Four players limped in front of me. I called the BB bet as did the SB. The BB checked. The flop came Ts8d7s giving me the nut straight. The SB checked and the BB made the minimum bet of $800. The four pre-flop limpers all called. I made it $2400 to go. I thought of making a larger raise here, but a) I wanted to build a decent pot with my monster flop, b) didn't want to commit too much of my stack too early with two cards to come, c) at the same time protect my hand against potential gutshot draws. Everyone folded except the BB and the last of the four pre-flop limpers. The pot is now almost at $16,000. The turn comes a harmless offsuit 3. The play was checked to me and I made it $10,000 to go. The BB folded and the limper does into the tank. I'm pretty sure he's debating whether or not to call with his flush draw. He's got a bigger stack but not by much (he started with about $30,000+ before the hand ). He calls my bet. The river comes the dreaded 4s. The limper thinks for a few seconds and pushed all-in. With the pot now at almost $36,000 (plus his all-in) and my stack at just over $12,000 I made a crying call. He turned over Ks8s and I was out. Getting 4-1 on my money I figured it was worth the call. Should I have folded?

Gypsydc · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject:

Gees man...talk about catching a big fish...that's tough at that point, I mean, it's tough to think somebody would chase a flush that hardcore especially without the odds to chase it when you bet 10k into a 16k pot. When he bet, I'd of probably called too...I've been in that situation plenty of times where I'm up against a set or 2 pair so...that's really a tough question to answer without having been in your shoes. Tough beat.

mathman1115 · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject:

The only better thing you could have done was all in on the turn. I mean you want to get paid off with a monster flop like that, but you don't want to get outdrawn. By the turn you had a decent pot to take.
Not saying you played it wrong, but i don't mess around usually. Chasers are going to pay.
You sort of gave him implied odds to call the turn. He figured if he hit his flush he would take the rest of your stack (and unfortunately he did) and i'm sure he put you on str8 or maybe a set. So he called 10K to win about a 60K pot at the end.
Again, not saying he did the right thing and you played bad, its just one of those things. I find many players (including myself) cannot laydown flush draws until they see that river.
As for your call on the river, i can't say it was bad. But you would have to assume that he had a decent hand as you were pretty pot committed and he probably didn't expect you to fold to a bluff at that point. You can only beat a set or two pair which he would not have played in that fashion on previous streets. I would have to convice myself to fold here, but it wouldn't be easy.

IbadbeetU · Guest

your stack in relation to the pot makes no difference on the river. "getting 4-1 odds on my money" is a terrible rationalization for your call. flopping a straight with 2 spades on the board, you should've bet the flop a lot harder, although in this case i'm not convinced it would've saved you from a bad beat, as your opponent's odds on the turn clearly didn't justify his call. it's better to take down a small pot on the flop than to lose a big one on the river.

GxHxOxSxT · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject:

Gypsy is right, man that is a harsh beat!

Personally, I love what Doyle Brunson has to say about big hands with flush possibilities on the board; push hard! The nut straight is a great hand, but with two to a flush on the board, I would have bet the flop much harder; from 3/4 up to the pot. With 6 other people in the hand the odds of 1 of them having pocket spades greatly increases.

You made a nice bet after that harmless little 3 came on the turn, but for some reason this sucker was just born to chase and quite probably would have called anything other than an all-in bet here (and he probably would have called that too!).

Doyle also says that when that 3rd card to a flush hits, he is ready to let a good hand go (and we all know how aggressive Texas Dolly is.) As soon as that final spade hit the table I would have been ready to fold to anything other than a really small bet. The way you described the hand, you had to have this guy pegged as a fisherman, especially since he was weak throughout the hand and then bet all in on the river. In a cash game you can think about calling, but in a tournament, where survival is the key, I would have probably swallowed my pride, pretended to think for a while and then have said, "pair of 7's probably won't take it", as I folded. But that's just me, I believe in tournament survival and I know that as long as I have a chip and a chair I have a chance to win the whole thing.

Ghost

KarlDykhuis · Flush Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Minnesota

It would be tough for me to lay that down as well, I'd even tell myself that "this guy just pulled a flush out of his butt", but I wouldn't listen. I'd see him show his pocket spades and I'd go the rest of the week without sleep asking myself why I didn't lay it down.

Im not a great tournament poker player but 4 limpers in front of me and I'm on the button with J9s, I'm raising. The pot is already up to $4400 counting the SB and BB, so I'm going to make these limpers pay and bump it to $2500. If one or two players call, you have a little better idea of what you may be up against. But that may just be me.

dmoore1998 · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject:

I like the limp-in pre-flop. Usually on the flop I will do one of two things...push hard (all-in) and just hope that anyone who calls doesn't suck out on me OR more likely what you did, put in a value bet and hope I get some calls and no scare card hits the turn. Once the turn blanks I am probably pushing all-in here. The pot is big, most draws will probably not call with only one card to come, the only calls I'm going to get are probably a set or maybe 2pair. Usually I'm just happy to take the pot right here.

gho · Straight Flush Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 391

Thanks for your responses guys. Thinking back, probably going all-in on the turn would have been my best play. At the time, I probably didn't think he would chase given the size of bet I made on the turn. In the back of my mind, I probably thought that if he did call, and a spade hit then I can fold as I was almost 90% sure he was on the flush draw. But when he called and I saw the size of the pot...guess I should have convinced myself a little more. It's tough though, online you don't really have that much time to play through the hand like you can in a live tourney. As mathman said, his most likely holding had to be the flush. Anything else he wouldn't have played it that way but then again I've been wrong about that too! Wink

I think if I had gone all-in on the flop, he probably would have called. I don't know about you guys, but I find players are more willing now to call all-ins with monster draws with two cards to come. I've gone all-in on the flop many times with a set or whatever trying to protect my hand only to get burned by similar draws. With only one more card to come, it's more difficult to chase as your odds are diminished. By making a small/medium bet on the flop, I'm not pot committed if a scare card comes on the turn. Also this allows hands drawing nearly dead (like top pair) to call and build up the pot. I felt my small/medium raise accomplished that although maybe I could have made it a little larger. I suppose this is higher risk-reward way of playing and probably why Doyle's got 10 WSOP bracelets and I've got ZERO!

bright star · Four of a Kind Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 269

The decision really needs to be made on the turn.

There have been times I've been in that situation myself. I determine the size of the bet I think I should make hoping to maximise profits - then I look at what remaining stack compared to pot size that would leave me with, and ask myself the obvious question.

If a third flush card hits on the river and he makes a value bet, will I be comfortable folding?

If the answer is "yes" then I will continue to make my bet prepared to toss it away if the river goes the wrong way.

If the answer is "no" then I will reconsider, and either make a smaller bet or go all in. In this case I would have likely opted for all-in.

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