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Dr Razz
High Card
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 14
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Should I bet on 7th? |
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Full Tilt Poker Game #6987224426: Table La Cantera - $5/$10 Ante $1 - Limit Razz - 1:09:50 ET - 2008/06/27
Seat 1: Dr Razz ($113)
Seat 2: slurp eee ($82.50)
Seat 3: jaws6346 ($172)
Seat 4: fatjaz ($168)
Seat 5: SCOOBY DOO 21 ($339)
Seat 6: IVLEEGER ($55.50)
Seat 7: SyphonSoul ($200)
Seat 8: ChaseFaceAce ($69)
SCOOBY DOO 21 antes $1
jaws6346 antes $1
Dr Razz antes $1
fatjaz antes $1
ChaseFaceAce antes $1
slurp eee antes $1
SyphonSoul antes $1
IVLEEGER antes $1
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Dr Razz [2s 6d] [7d]
Dealt to slurp eee [2h]
Dealt to jaws6346 [Qd]
Dealt to fatjaz [Ah]
Dealt to SCOOBY DOO 21 [Kc]
Dealt to IVLEEGER [2c]
Dealt to SyphonSoul [Qh]
Dealt to ChaseFaceAce [3s]
SCOOBY DOO 21 is high with [Kc]
SCOOBY DOO 21 brings in for $1.50
IVLEEGER completes it to $5
SyphonSoul folds
ChaseFaceAce folds
Dr Razz calls $5
slurp eee folds
jaws6346 folds
fatjaz raises to $10
SCOOBY DOO 21 folds
IVLEEGER calls $5
Dr Razz calls $5
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Dr Razz [2s 6d 7d] [5d]
Dealt to fatjaz [Ah] [8h]
Dealt to IVLEEGER [2c] [Ks]
Dr Razz bets $5
fatjaz calls $5
IVLEEGER calls $5
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Dr Razz [2s 6d 7d 5d] [6h]
Dealt to fatjaz [Ah 8h] [Ts]
Dealt to IVLEEGER [2c Ks] [9c]
Dr Razz bets $10
fatjaz has 15 seconds left to act
fatjaz folds
IVLEEGER calls $10
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Dr Razz [2s 6d 7d 5d 6h] [Ac]
Dealt to IVLEEGER [2c Ks 9c] [5c]
Dr Razz bets $10
IVLEEGER calls $10
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Dr Razz [2s 6d 7d 5d 6h Ac] [Qc]
Dr Razz checks
IVLEEGER checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dr Razz shows [Qc 6d 7d 5d 6h Ac 2s] 7,6,5,2,A
IVLEEGER mucks
Dr Razz wins the pot ($91.50) with 7,6,5,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $94.50 | Rake $3
Seat 1: Dr Razz showed [Qc 6d 7d 5d 6h Ac 2s] and won ($91.50) with 7,6,5,2,A
Seat 2: slurp eee folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: jaws6346 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 4: fatjaz folded on 5th St.
Seat 5: SCOOBY DOO 21 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 6: IVLEEGER mucked [Th 6c 2c Ks 9c 5c As] - 9,6,5,2,A
Seat 7: SyphonSoul folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: ChaseFaceAce folded on 3rd St.
My thinking was, he would not be calling my bet on 7th with a 9 low considering I have a 756A board, and it was likely he was drawing to a better low, which could easily warrant a re-raise. Any thoughts on this? Is this the right move? Thank you in advance. |
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Loopholes202
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 1275
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I think a check-call would have been the most proper thing to do here. I think you played it fine, a bet into a raise could be a mess, and its best that you cut your losses, and came away the winner. |
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spike420211
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 826
Location: check ur car trunk... it's dark in here, i know that
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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what loopholes said.
also notice that the 3's and 4's were relatively live, so 7th st, is standard. |
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Flying_Kiwi
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 5583
Location: Popping bubbles
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| It's really read dependant and I've definitely never played this high. At lower limits vs a total razzfish I would be betting 7th because you'll get called by some 8 and 9 lows - but at this limit or vs any kind of thinking razz player I think check/calling 7th is the best play. Nice hand. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3509
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| He will hit the better low about 15-20% of the time. However, I think he's going to call 7th the majority of time he misses as well. Say 1/5 he raises 7th it costs you 2 bets. You only need him to call 3/5 occasions to make it a worthwhile bet. I think it's somewhat player dependent, but most will call with a smooth 9+ here(atleast up through 3/6). |
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sgspecial
Flush
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| He will hit the better low about 15-20% of the time. However, I think he's going to call 7th the majority of time he misses as well. Say 1/5 he raises 7th it costs you 2 bets. You only need him to call 3/5 occasions to make it a worthwhile bet. I think it's somewhat player dependent, but most will call with a smooth 9+ here(atleast up through 3/6). |
This is incorrect. While I'd expect the opponent to raise if he makes a smooth 7 or better on the end, he will obviously bet such a hand if checked to as well. So a lead bet here only costs the hero 1 extra bet if he is outdrawn. Also, while this opponent clearly doesn't like to fold when starting with a big hand, hero is showing a very strong board and a lot of opponents would never call on the end with only a 9 low. It helps a lot to have a line on this villain's play before deciding to check or bet.
p.s. to Dr Razz -- with a name like that, I'd expect you to have more answers than questions  |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3509
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| sgspecial wrote: |
| Zophar wrote: |
| He will hit the better low about 15-20% of the time. However, I think he's going to call 7th the majority of time he misses as well. Say 1/5 he raises 7th it costs you 2 bets. You only need him to call 3/5 occasions to make it a worthwhile bet. I think it's somewhat player dependent, but most will call with a smooth 9+ here(atleast up through 3/6). |
This is incorrect. While I'd expect the opponent to raise if he makes a smooth 7 or better on the end, he will obviously bet such a hand if checked to as well. So a lead bet here only costs the hero 1 extra bet if he is outdrawn. Also, while this opponent clearly doesn't like to fold when starting with a big hand, hero is showing a very strong board and a lot of opponents would never call on the end with only a 9 low. It helps a lot to have a line on this villain's play before deciding to check or bet.
p.s. to Dr Razz -- with a name like that, I'd expect you to have more answers than questions |
That's another reason why I'd advocate betting, which i personally don't think is incorrect. It may only cost him 1 extra bet when outdrawn, but I believe hero will miss extra bets when not. I find that many players who will continue calling down with his board vs. the hero's is not folding a 9 or 8 low on 7th when getting nearly 9 to 1 odds when HU.
EDIT- I cross-posted this HH and 2 incredibly good(100/200+) Razz players(1 of which I consider one of the current best, *TT*) both advocated betting. Also, which I found interesting, was the advocation of folding 3rd street vs. select players. |
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sgspecial
Flush
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
That's another reason why I'd advocate betting, which i personally don't think is incorrect. It may only cost him 1 extra bet when outdrawn, but I believe hero will miss extra bets when not. I find that many players who will continue calling down with his board vs. the hero's is not folding a 9 or 8 low on 7th when getting nearly 9 to 1 odds when HU.
EDIT- I cross-posted this HH and 2 incredibly good(100/200+) Razz players(1 of which I consider one of the current best, *TT*) both advocated betting. Also, which I found interesting, was the advocation of folding 3rd street vs. select players. |
The villain here doesn't seem shy about calling (at least when he started off strong as evidenced by 5th st) so it's certainly reasonable to bet 7th against him. Your numbers are a little off about getting outdrawn tho, which will happen 1/4 times if villain started with two bike cards in the hole (other than a 5 obv). So if he will call more than 1/3 times with a made 8 or 9 on the end then it's correct to bet.
As for the other advice you received, of course a lot of the decisions in this hand are read dependent. Poker is read dependent. While alarms should be going off for a UTG raise in a tight 100/200 game, I can't see folding 3rd here at a random 5/10 table. There's a good chance the villain has a better hand than the hero, but against a range of any 3-card 6 or better hero still has 43% equity. At a full table with high antes there's far too much in the pot to go away for one SB unless villain is a much better player than you. Also, I don't recommend Sklansky's 6th st. check behind play in a spot like this, especially when you are first to act. |
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KATIE1988
Warned
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hello dr if you want an alternative view from me then here i go,
I would just check here.
That is all.
Spazzy g special has made a few interesting points ,mind boggling at times but the lad tries bless his little cotton socks arrrrrr  |
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njpokerhoney
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 949
Location: In Your Dreams
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| sgspecial wrote: |
p.s. to Dr Razz -- with a name like that, I'd expect you to have more answers than questions |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3509
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| sgspecial wrote: |
| Zophar wrote: |
That's another reason why I'd advocate betting, which i personally don't think is incorrect. It may only cost him 1 extra bet when outdrawn, but I believe hero will miss extra bets when not. I find that many players who will continue calling down with his board vs. the hero's is not folding a 9 or 8 low on 7th when getting nearly 9 to 1 odds when HU.
EDIT- I cross-posted this HH and 2 incredibly good(100/200+) Razz players(1 of which I consider one of the current best, *TT*) both advocated betting. Also, which I found interesting, was the advocation of folding 3rd street vs. select players. |
The villain here doesn't seem shy about calling (at least when he started off strong as evidenced by 5th st) so it's certainly reasonable to bet 7th against him. Your numbers are a little off about getting outdrawn tho, which will happen 1/4 times if villain started with two bike cards in the hole (other than a 5 obv). So if he will call more than 1/3 times with a made 8 or 9 on the end then it's correct to bet.
As for the other advice you received, of course a lot of the decisions in this hand are read dependent. Poker is read dependent. While alarms should be going off for a UTG raise in a tight 100/200 game, I can't see folding 3rd here at a random 5/10 table. There's a good chance the villain has a better hand than the hero, but against a range of any 3-card 6 or better hero still has 43% equity. At a full table with high antes there's far too much in the pot to go away for one SB unless villain is a much better player than you. Also, I don't recommend Sklansky's 6th st. check behind play in a spot like this, especially when you are first to act. |
My 1/5 was just a quick 6th street guesstimation on what I figured his outs were, as I figured he was about 20%.
In a 5/10 game I couldn't imagine folding it either, as there are fewer thinking players who understand their equity on each street and are less likely to pump it up. I'm not as much a fan of a check behind either on 6th in this spot vs. most players. In discussing it with *TT*, he even brought up checking 4th with the intention of c/ring, but I think it's too player specific to advocate as default. I've only had the most minor of success with it at 2/4 and 3/6, but more often just end up missing bets or suddenly pricing myself out of a hand when 5th comes extremely bad. There are just too few aggressive players(imo).
The villian in this hand seems extremely call happy and because of it basically forced a 7th street call on his part, as I feel he was priced in to do so. If he were to regularly call down and fold 7th, I'd advocate checking 7th for sure. And I'd never want to leave the table
Either way, I appreciate your discussion in this thread as I hate generic responses that often come up. The "why" behind responses is critical. |
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sgspecial
Flush
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| In a 5/10 game I couldn't imagine folding it either, as there are fewer thinking players who understand their equity on each street and are less likely to pump it up. I'm not as much a fan of a check behind either on 6th in this spot vs. most players. In discussing it with *TT*, he even brought up checking 4th with the intention of c/ring, but I think it's too player specific to advocate as default. I've only had the most minor of success with it at 2/4 and 3/6, but more often just end up missing bets or suddenly pricing myself out of a hand when 5th comes extremely bad. There are just too few aggressive players(imo). |
While there are plenty of players at 5/10 who are too passive, there are plenty at 100/200 who are too aggressive so playing the man (or woman) is always important. There are very few players who would be selective enough for an UTG raise to pitch this hand tho. As for the play on 6th st, this is a totally different spot than Sklansky is talking about in his book and I don't think it would apply even if the hero were in position. On the other hand, c/r'ing on 4th would be a very good idea if you can get fatjaz to cooperate.
p.s. no problem adding my 2 cents. The problem is usually getting me to stop. |
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Xctasy
Pair
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Computer says no |
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cdogg215
High Card
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| njpokerhoney wrote: |
| sgspecial wrote: |
p.s. to Dr Razz -- with a name like that, I'd expect you to have more answers than questions |
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"dr razz" must've forgot to mention he prob hit and ran that cash room. dude is infamous for the win 1 hand and run in cash rooms. |
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