Online Poker Forum - Is this a proper call?

dead n drawin · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: Is this a proper call?

I was playing a 5 + .50 SNG this afternoon and I saw a call that gave me some trouble. There were 4 people in the hand who all called the blind of 120. When it got around to the BB, he went all in for about 960. Everyone folded except for the small blind. He sat there for a second and then invested a little less than half his stack by calling with Q 10 offsuit. I won't mention what the BB player had, let's just say he did win the pot. But did the SB make the right choice by calling an all in bet, preflop with Q 10? When I mentioned it his reply was that he was getting 2.5-1 on his money...which wouldnt make a diff to me if I had Q 10 and was faced with an all-in bet for half my stack. Hell if I had 7 2 and happened to hit something I'd be getting 2.5-1 on my money lol....anyway, let me know what you folks think of this.

GTKID · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject:

If he put his opponent on the likely AK then yes. The fact that his opponents range here could be AK/AQ/AJ AA/KK/QQ/JJ/1010/99 and maybe down to 77. I don't know what his exact range woudl be obviously. I also am too lazy to do an overall equity calculation. Considering he could very easily be getting 2.5 to 1 on a 2 to 1 situation ur 2.5 to 1 on a race, his call could make some sense. Clearly he is never ahead in the hand though and risking 50% of your stack when your hoping for a race is questionable.

GripHoldOn · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject:

Were there four players left in the tournament? If there were, I'd probably say dump the hand and wait for a better spot.

GTKID · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject:

Yah but your a pu-pu-pu-*****. Real men call, forget pot odds, implied odds and percentages. You have to watch out for the implied **** odds.

JS13_TPS · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject:

he's at best 2-1 against a random hand, which we're guessing isn't random, so he's no longer actually 2-1, probably more like 3 or 4-1.

An area where I need work also, but unless i'm ITM and have to go to the bathroom real bad I can't see making this call.

dead n drawin · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject:

There were about 6-7 players left in the 9 man SNG. I dunno, maybe I really don't know anything about poker lol, but if I were in his position I would not have put half my stack in the pot with Q 10 off. period. I'd like it if someone could justify this call to me so that I understand where he's coming from because personally I've never made that move nor would I bother. Why put so much in the pot w/o a reason, esp. in a tournament where every chip counts.

nutshot2 · Pair Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 37

have you never seen a bad call before? this isn't exactly the worst call in the world. it's not a good call, or even a mediocre call, by any stretch... but why do you insist on having someone justify it for you? were you the one that made the call? everyone that just posted said that it was questionable at best... let it go...jeez

GTKID · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:

The fact that this person wants to out right push leads me to believe he has AK/AQ/AJ JJ/1010/99 and doesn't want to play a flop when a normal raise is going to 1/3 his stack. Q10 actually fairs decent against this range with just AQ having you in bad shape. Your only 2 to 1 dog against JJ/AK and your racing against a smaller pair. I am not justifying the call but if I were to this would be the logic I would go by. Remember every move you make is about equity in the long run, not just what he probably has this one time. I think overall if you can remove AA/KK/QQ from the hand range q10's equity doesn't become that terrible against the range I gave. I have seen people use things to do the full equity calculations but I am too lazy to do this much math. The fact that they're are more combinations of AK AJ out there then stuff like 10/10 and AQ helps your overall equity too. In all its defintely a bad call if you can't narrow his hand range. But if you can it can probably be justified. The fact that it requires a really significant amount of your stack though is what makes it lead towards bad. With a good chip lead that won't be hit too hard if you lose I could see this call.

JS13_TPS · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject:

ok, help me understand this odds thing better, while we're on the subject.

According to my handy dandy starting hands odds chart from pokersmarts.com, QTo is 16% to win against any random hand preflop. So, (100/%as whole numer)-1=odds, or (100/16)-1=5.25 or 5-1 to win, and the correct pot odds for a call of this nature would be 5-1 or better, so to call 960 the pot would need to be, 4800+. For a strictly correct mathmatical call? It messes me up trying to do 1/.16, etc.

Now, in reverse for 2.5-1, its' 1/(x+1)=% so 1/3.5=28%, which according to the chart is AA or KK although most would probably call with any pair or suited ace.

Just trying to learn here. Smile

GTKID · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:27 am Post subject:

Q10o is much better then 16% against a random hand preflop.

The worst hand in poker 32o has a 32% chance of winning against a random hand. Against a known hand these odds change but against a random hand you are never worse then 2 to 1.

JS13_TPS · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:35 am Post subject:

gotcha, i re-read the fine itty-bitty print on this chart and it's for a full 9 handed table with everyone seeing all cards to the river. LOL, sounds like a $5+.50 huh?

At any rate, assuming you are 16% to win against whatever, is my math/odds correct for that %? And said calculations can be used for whatever % you are?

thanks.

GTKID · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:43 am Post subject:

16% if the entire table is all in until the river? That makes more sense. Since your fair share is 11% at a 9 handed table doing this with random hands, you would make money everytime it happened. Albeit small.

JS13_TPS · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:52 am Post subject:

I found a couple good charts, this one seems to be most informative, odds to outs.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=13913&m_id=88

opinions?

DarkJackal · High Card Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 16

Q,10 isnt that bad you can catch a st8 on the river and the Big Blind might not have anything like mos tof the times he might as well try and steal it. Like you said every chip counts if he was able to get those chips from that big blind he has a little more chips to work with how much was the big blind first of all?

UrbanMeyer1 · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject:

Post the HH instead.

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